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Topic: "Northmen" Tribe Page

Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2017-06-27, 12:50

The fast barley production has two reasons. There is not so much need for barley, because bread and beer are produced cheaply (especially bread, 1 barley = 1 bread), and I didn´t multiply the farm´s sleep times with 2 everywhere. I will try letting barley grow 4 times slower than wheat and let the farm/farmer sleep/work 4 times as long as the barbarian farm. Whether that is balanced – we´ll see.

Current economy uses a Clay Burner´s House, which produces Clay out of Water, and a Brick Burner´s House, which produces Bricks out of Clay, Granite and Coal. So, I don´t see the need to change anything about this now.

So, water and fruit for the aqua farm is good. It currently needs 20 (!) water as part of the build cost and produces fish at a rate of 3×water + 1×fruit → 1×fish. But I didn´t use aqua farms yet, because my testing maps have lots of meat and fish resources.

The tribe is stable and playable now. It does not have any pretty images or helptexts yet and is very unbalanced (especially soldier strength, it takes 5 of their level 0 soldiers to kill one untrained barbarian). I´d like to make the tribe available for download now, so I´ll put it to Launchpad as a branch soon. I have no experience with Lauchpad, though – could someone please explain how I can get my local branch there?


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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2017-06-27, 13:54

Nordfriese wrote:

So I suggest the following simplifications:

  • No scrap metal and recycling centre. Instead, training sites will drop out iron ore and gold ore at a rate of 1 iron/gold ore per iron/gold ingot that was used to create the weapon/helmet/armour.

I think that this is just too illogical

Nordfriese wrote:

I didn´t multiply the farm´s sleep times with 2 everywhere.

Why should you do this?


Wanted to save the world, then I got widetracked

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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2017-06-27, 14:11

Scrap metal was produced in such low quantities and turned into iron at such a low rate that the recycling centre wasn´t worth its build cost. So, we should either forget about recycling altogether (which I wouldn´t like) or recycle without the need for additional buildings. One possibility would be for the training site to produce scrap metal which goes to the furnace, which turns it into iron at 1:1 rate (it should not have a lower rate, and a higher one would be illogical). But this wouldn´t change anything except that no gold is returned from weapon build cost, and in my opinion, it is much less logical than just dropping out ores.

If barley grows half as fast as wheat, but the farm has the same sleep/work times as the barbarian farm, the only difference would be that the farm plants twice as many fields. The average production time of 1 barley would remain the same. The actual speed control is done via the sleep time, and the barley growth time is only adjusted so that barley fields don´t turn ripe too early or too late, which would change the amount of space the farm needs. I set a sleep time much too low, so in effect the farms produced as fast as barbarian farms but needed much more space. Some fields turned old before they could be harvested.

You can try this out with your local copy of Widelands: open the data/tribes/buildings/productionsites/barbarians/farm/init.lua and the data/tribes/immovables/field_???/init.lua and play with the time values. The effect in game is immediate.


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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2017-06-27, 16:01

Nordfriese wrote:

Scrap metal was produced in such low quantities and turned into iron at such a low rate that the recycling centre wasn´t worth its build cost.

But after a certain time, it will be the case, won't it?

So, we should either forget about recycling altogether (which I wouldn´t like) or recycle without the need for additional buildings. One possibility would be for the training site to produce scrap metal which goes to the furnace, which turns it into iron at 1:1 rate (it should not have a lower rate, and a higher one would be illogical). But this wouldn´t change anything except that no gold is returned from weapon build cost, and in my opinion, it is much less logical than just dropping out ores.

There could also be golden scrap and/or mixed scrap metal. Two pieces of mixed scrap metal could be transformed into one gold and one iron.

If barley grows half as fast as wheat, but the farm has the same sleep/work times as the barbarian farm, the only difference would be that the farm plants twice as many fields.

The average production time of 1 barley would remain the same. The actual speed control is done via the sleep time,

and the barley growth time is only adjusted so that barley fields don´t turn ripe too early or too late, which would change the amount of space the farm needs.

That's what I told, and king_of_nowhere told almost the same face-wink.png

I set a sleep time much too low, so in effect the farms produced as fast as barbarian farms but needed much more space.

But you told that it was ten times faster?

Some fields turned old before they could be harvested.

That's the fault of the farmer's behaviour, not of his speed, right?

It also happens to current farms


Wanted to save the world, then I got widetracked

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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2017-06-27, 17:23

WorldSavior wrote:

Nordfriese wrote:

Scrap metal was produced in such low quantities and turned into iron at such a low rate that the recycling centre wasn´t worth its build cost.

But after a certain time, it will be the case, won't it?

By the time you have gathered enough scrap metal to efficiently run a recycling centre, you have a smoothly running mining infrastructure and tons of iron and gold in armour smithies and warehouses. You then won´t need to recycle the scraps, especially if smelting ores is cheaper.

So, we should either forget about recycling altogether (which I wouldn´t like) or recycle without the need for additional buildings. One possibility would be for the training site to produce scrap metal which goes to the furnace, which turns it into iron at 1:1 rate (it should not have a lower rate, and a higher one would be illogical). But this wouldn´t change anything except that no gold is returned from weapon build cost, and in my opinion, it is much less logical than just dropping out ores.

There could also be golden scrap and/or mixed scrap metal. Two pieces of mixed scrap metal could be transformed into one gold and one iron.

Every type of scrap metal is one individual kind of ware. Iron scrap, gold scrap, mixed scrap – how many kinds of wares do you want? face-wink.png

If barley grows half as fast as wheat, but the farm has the same sleep/work times as the barbarian farm, the only difference would be that the farm plants twice as many fields.

The average production time of 1 barley would remain the same. The actual speed control is done via the sleep time,

and the barley growth time is only adjusted so that barley fields don´t turn ripe too early or too late, which would change the amount of space the farm needs.

That's what I told, and king_of_nowhere told almost the same ;-)

All right, the current working radius is fine now, I tested it face-smile.png

I set a sleep time much too low, so in effect the farms produced as fast as barbarian farms but needed much more space.

But you told that it was ten times faster?

A miscalculation. I compared the amount of barley in stock with the stock of wheat which barbarians would have in store at this time of game. But the values aren´t comparable, as barbarians consume much more grain than this tribe. The actual farming speed was "only" 2-3 times faster than barbarians.

Some fields turned old before they could be harvested.

That's the fault of the farmer's behaviour, not of his speed, right?

It also happens to current farms

Current farms have this too, but this tribe had this problem with lots of fields, because the farmer wasn´t fast enough to harvest all he planted. Due to a typo in a lua file, the barley field was harvestable for less than a fifth of the intended time before it turned old.

For my newest tests, I made barley grow 3 times slower than wheat, and I have the farm work/sleep 3 times as long as barbarian farm. This seems to be a good value.

One more question to everyone: I now named the tribe "Frisians". Does everyone agree with that or is there protest?


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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2017-06-27, 18:27

I just uploaded the branch to Launchpad: https://code.launchpad.net/~widelands-dev/widelands/frisians

So everyone can download and test it now. I emphasise again: It is playable, but terribly unbalanced, with no great images and no helptexts. I hope it works. I´m looking forward to your opinions face-smile.png

EDIT: The first version I uploaded is missing some files. Revision 8386 is complete.

Edited: 2017-06-27, 19:26

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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2017-06-27, 20:02

We have a wiki page on how to use Launchpad: https://wl.widelands.org/wiki/BzrPrimer/

But do feel free to give me a shout whenever you need help.


Busy indexing nil values

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WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
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Posted at: 2017-06-28, 18:37

Nordfriese wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

Nordfriese wrote:

Scrap metal was produced in such low quantities and turned into iron at such a low rate that the recycling centre wasn´t worth its build cost.

But after a certain time, it will be the case, won't it?

By the time you have gathered enough scrap metal to efficiently run a recycling centre, you have a smoothly running mining infrastructure and tons of iron and gold in armour smithies and warehouses. You then won´t need to recycle the scraps, especially if smelting ores is cheaper.

Come on, don't be kidding again. It just needs a little bit of coal to turn scrap into metal, so it is a very efficient building! So of course it will compensate its costs and create a lot of value

Smelting ores will not be cheaper, but much more expensive: Instead of additional smelting works and everything which you need for producing ores, you can just build additional recycling centers. I checked the values again which you suggested: You can even save a part of your coal industry!

So, we should either forget about recycling altogether (which I wouldn´t like) or recycle without the need for additional buildings. One possibility would be for the training site to produce scrap metal which goes to the furnace, which turns it into iron at 1:1 rate (it should not have a lower rate, and a higher one would be illogical). But this wouldn´t change anything except that no gold is returned from weapon build cost, and in my opinion, it is much less logical than just dropping out ores.

There could also be golden scrap and/or mixed scrap metal. Two pieces of mixed scrap metal could be transformed into one gold and one iron.

Every type of scrap metal is one individual kind of ware. Iron scrap, gold scrap, mixed scrap – how many kinds of wares do you want? face-wink.png

Hey, you are the one who wants thousand different wares...

And in fact, scrap would be very similar to ores, so this additional wares are not a big problem.

But if you want that it is more simple: The trainingssites could drop out some iron and some gold instead of ores. That's not that illogical.

I set a sleep time much too low, so in effect the farms produced as fast as barbarian farms but needed much more space.

But you told that it was ten times faster?

A miscalculation. I compared the amount of barley in stock with the stock of wheat which barbarians would have in store at this time of game. But the values aren´t comparable, as barbarians consume much more grain than this tribe. The actual farming speed was "only" 2-3 times faster than barbarians.

That's a funny calculation face-wink.png

Some fields turned old before they could be harvested.

That's the fault of the farmer's behaviour, not of his speed, right?

It also happens to current farms

Current farms have this too, but this tribe had this problem with lots of fields, because the farmer wasn´t fast enough to harvest all he planted. Due to a typo in a lua file, the barley field was harvestable for less than a fifth of the intended time before it turned old.

For my newest tests, I made barley grow 3 times slower than wheat, and I have the farm work/sleep 3 times as long as barbarian farm. This seems to be a good value.

But isn't that extremely slow? : (

One more question to everyone: I now named the tribe "Frisians". Does everyone agree with that or is there protest?

I don't protest against that. But probably I would protest if someone would make that tribe official before it's not clear that it is a good tribe face-wink.png


Wanted to save the world, then I got widetracked

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NonServiam
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Joined: 2015-07-26, 00:51
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Posted at: 2017-06-28, 19:02

GunChleoc wrote: Or how about having an Asian, African or American-based tribe?

Amazons. If only I had the blender skills, I'd make Amazons. They would live off fish and fruit, and would be quite dependent on rivers (maybe they don't have wells, but draw water from lakes and rivers and seas)?

Also Picts, Desert Nomads, Igloo People, Neanderthals.

I have all these ideas but no coding or blender skills to make them happen. face-sad.png


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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2017-06-28, 19:12

Once we have a working tribe, I could post something on artists' sites to see if we can get somebody interested to help out. Getting creative on something new is certainly more attractive for artists than fixing up other people's work.

We also still need models for the Barracks for the Barbarians and Empire to replace my shoddy Frankensteins...


Busy indexing nil values

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