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Topic: "Northmen" Tribe Page

Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2017-06-28, 20:37

When the Frisians are working and get into trunk, I´ll be happy to help coding another tribe. But until then, let´s concentrate on the one that is currently under development.

@WorldSaviour: If you aren´t sure if it is a good tribe, play some test games with the branch and then say what exactly is bad about it. And please tell me what trainingsites should do in your opinion? I see the following suggestions:

  • Drop out iron ore and gold ore (current situation, which I prefer)

  • Drop out up to three different types of scrap metal, to be smelted in a recycling centre (complicated; at what rate exactly?)

  • Drop out iron and gold

I´d like the opinion of some other players here as well…

The current farming speed is fine in my opinion. Now, I have a permanent slight shortage of grain unless I build dozens of farms. It is the same when I play barbarians. So, I think it is not too slow.

Finally, a balancing question. Soldier strength. The frisian soldiers are much too weak at the moment, so I spent some time working out better attributes. Here is the result (I have included the other tribes values for comparison):

                               BAR  EMP  ATL  FRI
Attack: Maximum Level           5    4    4    6
        Basic Value            1200 1300 1200 1500
        Increase per level     850  800  800 1000
Evade: MaxLevel                 2    2    2    0
       Basic                    25   30   30   25
       Increase                 15   16   17   0
Defense: MaxLevel               0    0    2    2
          Basic                 3    5    6    5
          Increase              4    5    8    0
Health: MaxLevel                3    4    1    2
       Basic                13000 13000 13500 12000
       Increase              2800  2100  4000  5000

This makes frisian soldiers slightly stronger than others (in theory, I didn´t test it yet).


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einstein13
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Posted at: 2017-06-28, 21:12

If you are working with soldiers, you can test it with my project for testing soldiers strength: https://github.com/einstein13/wl_soldiers

Just define another soldier and try them fighting.

Is this table OK? Increase of defence for FRI is 0?


einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/

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JanO
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Posted at: 2017-06-28, 22:47

My opinion to the recycling:

If trainingsites drop out ores, it seems little bit provisional. Just because there is no imaginable process taking place in the trainingsite which could possibly transform smelted ore into raw ore. Yes, it is an effective workaround, but it is a bit to obivious, that it is just done to keep stuff simple.

The recycling center would make sense, if it would handle coal very effective. For example take 3 scrap metals + 1 coal and make two steel or gold out of it. I think that would be reasonable, if you compare the energy cost of smelting ore (which mainly consists of minerals that have much higher smelting temperature than iron) and just smelting metal. Otherwise, the ordinary furnace could handle this job as well.

Having the trainingsites dropping out perfect smelted metal bars seem like a workaround, too. It just doesn't make sense

And yes, I know that I suggested that myself face-wink.png


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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2017-06-28, 23:19

you need an increase in defence, which is not listed in your table.

i'd like to try the tribe and give feedback, but I don't have linux


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einstein13
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Posted at: 2017-06-29, 07:59

Battles win:

vs. bar_10 emp_10 atl_10 fri_10
bar_10 54.8% 52.1% 50.7% 51.5%
emp_10 55.3% 53.3% 49.5% 48.4%
atl_10 56.7% 56.9% 53.1% 52.5%
fri_10 61.6% 61.8% 57.6% 62.5%

with some my modifications (no info)

Edited: 2017-06-29, 08:00

einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/

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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2017-06-29, 08:06

NonServiam wrote:

GunChleoc wrote: Or how about having an Asian, African or American-based tribe?

Amazons. If only I had the blender skills, I'd make Amazons.

I also thought about the possibility of an Amazon tribe. Nice coincidence face-smile.png

I like the idea

They would live off fish and fruit, and would be quite dependent on rivers (maybe they don't have wells, but draw water from lakes and rivers and seas)?

Nice ideas. Maybe they could also draw water from waterbodies in general? The map editor doesn't distinguish between salt-water and non-salt-water anyway, which is not a big problem in my opinion face-wink.png

Also Picts, Desert Nomads, Igloo People, Neanderthals.

I have all these ideas but no coding or blender skills to make them happen. face-sad.png

Nice ideas, too. I also thought about the ware "ice" as a building ware, so you need a lot of water for buildings, which would be interesting. If the ice would be magical, it wouldn't melt face-wink.png

Nordfriese wrote:

When the Frisians are working and get into trunk, I´ll be happy to help coding another tribe. But until then, let´s concentrate on the one that is currently under development.

Well, maybe it would have made more sense to ask the whole community about new tribes instead of just starting?

I mean, can anybody just make a tribe and add it to the official builds? That would surprise me

@WorldSaviour: If you aren´t sure if it is a good tribe, play some test games with the branch and then say what exactly is bad about it.

Testing with the branch seems to be complicated. But for example I think it doesn't make sense that the frisian farms are much slower than barbarian farms, which are already the slowest. And that's just one example.

Probably it would be better if more people would have been involved in the creation of the tribe

And please tell me what trainingsites should do in your opinion? I see the following suggestions:

  • Drop out iron ore and gold ore (current situation, which I prefer)

  • Drop out up to three different types of scrap metal, to be smelted in a recycling centre (complicated; at what rate exactly?)

  • Drop out iron and gold

Well, I still think that ores don't make sense there. But it is not so necessary to declare already which method should be used, because I don't know if the tribe would be too complex or not. I'd have to test it

I´d like the opinion of some other players here as well…

The current farming speed is fine in my opinion. Now, I have a permanent slight shortage of grain unless I build dozens of farms. It is the same when I play barbarians. So, I think it is not too slow.

Barbarians don't need dozens of farms in every match, mostly just some of them

Finally, a balancing question. Soldier strength. The frisian soldiers are much too weak at the moment, so I spent some time working out better attributes. Here is the result (I have included the other tribes values for comparison):

~~~~ BAR EMP ATL FRI Attack: Maximum Level 5 4 4 6 Basic Value 1200 1300 1200 1500 Increase per level 850 800 800 1000 Evade: MaxLevel 2 2 2 0 Basic 25 30 30 25 Increase 15 16 17 0 Defense: MaxLevel 0 0 2 2 Basic 3 5 6 5 Increase 4 5 8 0 Health: MaxLevel 3 4 1 2 Basic 13000 13000 13500 12000 Increase 2800 2100 4000 5000 ~~~~

What about the differences between minimal and maximal attack? (You are just listing minimal attack here.) If they are too close together, frisian heroes will probably kill other frisian heroes safely, in case they attack them, and this might be a problem.

This makes frisian soldiers slightly stronger than others (in theory, I didn´t test it yet).

How did you calculate the probabilities for fights?

JanO wrote:

My opinion to the recycling:

If trainingsites drop out ores, it seems little bit provisional. Just because there is no imaginable process taking place in the trainingsite which could possibly transform smelted ore into raw ore. Yes, it is an effective workaround, but it is a bit to obivious, that it is just done to keep stuff simple.

Exactly

The recycling center would make sense, if it would handle coal very effective. For example take 3 scrap metals + 1 coal and make two steel or gold out of it. I think that would be reasonable, if you compare the energy cost of smelting ore (which mainly consists of minerals that have much higher smelting temperature than iron) and just smelting metal. Otherwise, the ordinary furnace could handle this job as well.

Having the trainingsites dropping out perfect smelted metal bars seem like a workaround, too. It just doesn't make sense

That's right, but the metals of the frisians are not necessarily bars face-wink.png

They could look already similar to swords face-wink.png

Not logical enough?

einstein13 wrote:

Battles win:

vs. bar_10 emp_10 atl_10 fri_10
bar_10 54.8% 52.1% 50.7% 51.5%
emp_10 55.3% 53.3% 49.5% 48.4%
atl_10 56.7% 56.9% 53.1% 52.5%
fri_10 61.6% 61.8% 57.6% 62.5%

with some my modifications (no info)

It's cool that you already do the calculations face-grin.png

The values don't look very bad, but probably those soldiers are too strong


Wanted to save the world, then I got widetracked

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einstein13
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Posted at: 2017-06-29, 09:54

Yes, I did the calculations, because the program is done, only added some settings.
Now I don't have much time to explain all the data, but I had to assume:

  • Maximal attack (minimal is defined, maximal not)
  • Defence additions with leveling up

But I guess that the soldiers are too random (lots of attack, lack of evade). But this is only my point of view. Maybe another tribe with that stats will be good to make more variety?

Amazons

I would like to see completely different tribe: lots of evade/defence and not high value of attack

Edited: 2017-06-29, 09:56

einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/

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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2017-06-29, 11:48

I just pushed a new revision to launchpad. The recycling centre has been re-introduced and there are 2 kinds of scrap metal: Iron and mixed. The recycling centre turns 2 iron scraps and 1 coal into 2 iron; 2 mixed scraps and 1 coal into 1 iron and 1 gold. I also improved the tavern, though the program is more complicated now.

The defence increase of 0 was a spelling mistake, of course. Training with an increase of 0 would be pretty pointless. The real value is 20. @einstein13 It´s great that you have a program to calculate this! I made a Java program for my calculations, but it´s terribly slow and didn´t cope well with maximum attack (always assumed minimal force). The results were similar to your table, but not quite the same. Perhaps lower attack would improve the balance? I´ll try some more balancing…


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king_of_nowhere
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Joined: 2014-09-15, 18:35
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Posted at: 2017-06-29, 12:36

re: scrap metal. I think the scrap metal ware is the best way to handle it. you must melt the metal and forge it again to reuse it, so clearly it is not a metal ingot, but it is also not a metal ore.

re: soldier power: they have around 55% against other soldiers (with a great difference whether they strike first or not, because of their low evade), which is not game breaking. But we must make sure that their soldiers are more expensive to balance that. And keep in mind that recicling scrap metal makes their weapons cheaper in comparison.

finally,

Well, maybe it would have made more sense to ask the whole community about new tribes instead of just starting?

I mean, can anybody just make a tribe and add it to the official builds? That would surprise me

as someone once said, this is a do-ocracy: whoever decides to do something has the power to do it.


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einstein13
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Posted at: 2017-06-29, 14:29

I will update the project today evening and recalculate everything one more time (10^7 tests for each battle).

I also will check if level9 vs level10 soldier is a big difference (in old topic we did the rebalancing this situation for other tribes).

Please provide also max_attack value for your tribe.

re scrap metal: I would pick an idea that you need 2 scrap for 1 real metal. Or you did a balance for rarity of scrap?


einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/

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