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Topic: "Northmen" Tribe Page

JanO
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Posted at: 2017-06-23, 00:01

A few other things on my mind:

  • Giving the resource salt a right to exist: The tribe could use it to purify iron (or other minerals). This would result in a completely new way how economy works since food production could compete with advanced weapon production
  • I like the idea of processing water-food-production from boats. If the buildings are made of mud and need significantly less wood than the other tribes, this would be a way to give a need for wood
  • The aspect of balancing is a second step (in my opinion). Yes, it is complicated. Yes, one should keep it in mind even in this early state. But not more. It's way to early to figure out any values for the soldiers attributes
Edited: 2017-06-23, 00:01

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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2017-06-23, 07:26
  • Soldier training: Yes, we could have maximum health and defence level 2 each. The first trainingsite could train them up to Defence 2 - Health 1 - Attack 2 and the other from this to full promotion. Bread and sweet bread as well as beer and mead must be required for training.

  • All right, we´ll use barley as grain. The farms (as I gather it) should have a working radius of 4, the barley growing more slowly than other tribes´s grain. We could simplify mining input as: Ration = smoked meat or smoked fish or bread; Meal = smoked meat or smoked fish and sweet bread and beer. The mead would then be reserved for soldiers, and small mines can be operated without farming. Bread should be baked out of water and barley 1:1. The mud mine could use rations as input.

  • Perhaps Mussels could be bred in Aqua Farms only. The Aqua Farm breeds mussels, which are then processed into fish. That would complicate the fish production chain. Fishing from boats is also a nice idea, but I don´t see how this could be implemented. I´m still not convinced about gathering berries…

  • So, this tribe would be quite weak in early game, which is compensated in late game with the strongest soldiers. Basic defence, life and attack should be very low but rise greatly with each training level. Basic evade is higher than for other tribes, so they stand a normal chance against another level 0 soldier. But we shouldn´t calculate the details until this tribe can actually be played with. The battle equipment could be swords only, but I haven´t thought about how many different swords and what types to use.

  • The ware Salt apparently isn´t wanted for food production. So we´ll just have the Tannery. Digging turf out of the ground unlimited is not good, because it is a very limited resource. Perhaps we could just leave it out and use logs for the Tannery instead, as they are not very useful for this tribe at the moment. I don´t understand how salt can be used to improve iron, please explain…

  • Reindeer breeders: I imagined them as something like the barbarian cattle farm. But we could also have reindeer growing within fences, no problem. Except the tribe will need a lot of space, as the farms get a large radius…


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JanO
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Posted at: 2017-06-23, 09:00

Salt for purification of iron was wrong. It is used for heat treatment for some special sorts of steel.

For "normal" alloys you take your piece of steel, heat it up to a specific temperature, hold that temperature for a specific time and then cool it down very fast (water bath). This causes your workpiece to become hard but recalcitrant. Then you heat it up again to a lower temperature for a specific time so the crystal structure changes again an the steel becomes tough (and not recalcitrant any more).

Now there are some special alloys that must not be cooled with water, because hey would get cracks. Some of them are cooled with melted salt instead and in the end you have some of the toughest iron-based materials known (HSS is a common example).

I know, this is kind of specific knowledge, but since the game does not need to give the explanation... face-wink.png


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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2017-06-23, 11:46

Regarding berry collection:

  • we could have them plant the bushes, just like the farms do with fields
  • maybe they collect mushrooms instead that will be available below trees

Busy indexing nil values

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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2017-06-23, 14:55

I would advise against having too many resources with limited use. they may look cool in the design phase, but they are a real bother for the player, who has to remeber all of them and risks otherwise to find himself stuck because he forgot a very specific resource he only needs for a couple things. Also, they slow a lot the early game, and they significantly reduce the tribe's power in a map with little space, because of all those buildings that must be built only once. reindeer, salt, mussles, berries, mushrooms, honey, mud... some of those will have to go.


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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2017-06-23, 14:59

I don´t think this tribe really produces such very special steel… We could have a steel production site that makes steel with salt and tons of fuel for the very best weapons, but it seems too complicated. Ordinary iron production and no salt at all might be better.

Berries and mushrooms are a very popular idea, it seems face-smile.png All right, how about this: There is a Berry Farmer that plants berry bushes like foresters do with trees. And there is a Collector that gathers berries from a mature berry bush (which then disappears) as well as mushrooms from not-yet-mature trees. The produced ware is called "fruit" or "berries and mushrooms" and it is used for rations and meals (perhaps for soldier training as well?).

  • Ration production: 1×(fruit OR smoked meat OR smoked fish OR bread) AND 1×beer → 1 Ration

  • Meals: 1×bread AND 1×mead AND 1×(smoked meat OR smoked fish OR fruit) → 1 Meal

We could have the following weapons to equip the warriors with (levels 0-6): Basic Sword, Long Sword, Curved Sword, Double-edged Sword, 2 Long Swords, 2 Curved Swords, 2 Double-edged swords.


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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2017-06-23, 15:40

I have made a list of all buildings, workers and wares. This is roughly what has been discussed. I hope I didn´t forget anything important.

Wares:

Log, Granite, Earth, Clay, Brick, Reet;
Water, Meat, Fish, Smoked Meat, Smoked Fish, Fruit, Honey, Grain, Bread, Sweet Bread, Beer, Mead, Ration, Meal;
Coal, Iron ore, Gold ore, Iron, Gold;
Fur, Cloth, Fur Clothes, Silver fur clothes, Golden fur clothes, Helmet, Golden Helmet;
Basic Sword, Long Sword, Curved Sword, Double-edged Sword;
Felling Ax, Pick, Shovel, Scythe, Basket, Hunting Spear, Fishing Rod, Hammer, Bread Paddle, Kitchen Tools, Fire Tongs, Needle;

Workers:

NAME            USES                    NEXT LEVEL      TRAINED AT
Woodcutter      Felling Ax
Stonemason      Pick
Miner           Pick                    Master Miner
Trainer         Basic Sword, Fur Cloth
Warrior         Basic Sword, Fur Cloth                  Barracks
Seamstress      Needle
Baker           Bread Paddle
Brewer                                  Master Brewer
Reindeer Breeder
Smelter         Fire Tongs
Builder         Hammer
Blacksmith      Hammer
Fruit Collector Basket
Berry Farmer    Shovel
Forester        Shovel
Hunter          Hunting Spear
Fisher          Fishing Rod
Landlady        Kitchen Tools
Tanner          Kitchen Tools
Bee-keeper
Reet Farmer     Shovel
Farmer          Scythe
Digger          Shovel
Scout
Clay Burner     Fire Tongs
Charcoal Burner
Fish Breeder
Carrier
Reindeer                                                Reindeer Farm

Buildings:

NAME                    SIZE        INPUT               OUTPUT                      WORKER
Woodcutter´s House      small       <trees>             Log                         Woodcutter
Forester´s House        small       –                   <trees>                     Forester
Quarry                  small       <rocks>             Granite                     Stonemason
Well                    small       <water>             Water                       Carrier
Scout´s House           small       Ration              –                           Scout
Mud Mine                medium      Ration              Earth                       Digger
Clay Burner´s House     medium      1×Water + 1×Earth   1×Clay                      Clay Burner
Brick Burner´s House    medium      2×Clay              1×Brick                     Clay Burner
Charcoal Kiln           medium      6×Log               1×Coal                      Charcoal Burner
Hunter´s House          small       <game>              Meat                        Hunter
Fisher´s House          small       <fish>              Fish                        Fisher
Reet Farm               medium      –                   Reet                        Reet Farmer
Aqua Farm               big         ???                 Fish                        Fish Breeder
Farm                    big         –                   Grain                       Farmer
Bakery                  medium      1×Grain + 1×Water   1×Bread                     Baker
Sweetbread Bakery       <Bakery>    1×Bread + 1×Honey   1×Sweetbread                Baker
Brewery                 medium      1×Grain + 1×Water   1×Beer                      Brewer
Mead Brewery            <Brewery>   1×Grain + 1×Water   1×Beer                      Master Brewer
                                    1×Grain + 1×Water + 1×Honey = 1×Mead
Tannery                 medium      1×Meat + 1×Log      1×Smoked Meat               Tanner
                                    1×Fish + 1×Log      1×Smoked Fish
Tavern                  medium      1×Beer + 1×Fruit,SMeat,SFish,Bread = 1×Ration   Landlady
Drinking Hall           <Tavern>    1×Beer + 1×Fruit,SMeat,SFish,Bread = 1×Ration   Landlady
                                    1×Mead + 1×Bread + 1×Fruit,SMeat,SFish = 1×Meal
Bee-keeper´s House      medium      –                   Honey                       Bee-keeper
Reindeer Farm           big         1×Grain + 1×Water   Reindeer                    Reindeer Breeder
                                    1×Grain + 1×Water   Fur
Weaving Mill            big         1×Fur               1×Fur Clothes               Seamstress
                                    2×Fur               1×Cloth
Seamstress              medium      1×FurCloth + 1×Iron 1×Silver Fur Cloth          Seamstress
                                    1×FurCloth + 1×Iron + 1×Gold = 1×GoldenFurCloth
Berry Farm              small       –                   <bushes>                    Berry Farmer
Fruit Collector´s House small       <bushes,small tree> Fruit                       Fruit Collector
Furnace                 medium      1×Coal + 1×Iron ore 1×Iron                      Smelter
                                    1×Coal + 1×Gold ore 1×Gold
Blacksmithy             medium      1×Log + 1×Iron      1×(Tool)                    Blacksmith
Armour Smithy           medium      1×Coal + 1×Iron     1×Basic Sword               Blacksmith
                                    1×Coal + 2×Iron     1×Long Sword
                                    2×Coal + 1×Iron + 1×Gold = 1×Curved Sword
                                    2×Coal + 2×Iron + 2×Gold = 1×Double-edged Sword
                                    1×Coal + 2×Iron     1×Helmet
                                    2×Coal + 2×Iron + 1×Gold = 1×Golden Helmet

Barracks                medium      1×FurCloth + 1×BasicSword = 1×Soldier           Trainer
HQ, Warehouse, Port, Mines etc; Military: Wooden Tower (s), Outpost (s), Wall (m), Tower (b), Fortress (b)
Training camp and Training arena

I did not think about production times and build costs yet. Everything is still open for discussion, of course. I just felt I was losing track of all the changes face-smile.png


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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2017-06-23, 16:02

Wow, impressive...

There is a military building called "wall"? Be careful with military buildings. If they are too different from current military buildings, it could be game-breaking.

Nordfriese wrote:

  • All right, we´ll use barley as grain. The farms (as I gather it) should have a working radius of 4, the barley growing more slowly than other tribes´s grain.

If the plant grows slower, the farm needs more space. And if the farm works faster, it also needs more space. But a radius of 4 is in my opinion ridiculously high. I mean, 2 is the current radius, and the farms need only a little part of their working area...

If the farm would need such a huge working area, it could not really work on "archipelago sea", for example

king_of_nowhere wrote:

I would advise against having too many resources with limited use. they may look cool in the design phase, but they are a real bother for the player, who has to remeber all of them and risks otherwise to find himself stuck because he forgot a very specific resource he only needs for a couple things. Also, they slow a lot the early game, and they significantly reduce the tribe's power in a map with little space, because of all those buildings that must be built only once. reindeer, salt, mussles, berries, mushrooms, honey, mud... some of those will have to go.

I have not counted all wares, but probably you are right


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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2017-06-23, 17:05

The farm radius is a typo. I meant 3 – one larger than other farms. But smaller than that would be really inefficient.

I took the "wall" from the wiki page. I think it is something like a barrier. Having instead a "Barrier" or "Watch Post" would make more sense.

As for the too many wares: I removed salt, turf and mussles; berries and mushrooms are the same ware. Is this simplified enough or are there still too many?

In the building list, I got something wrong: Reet will be the same ware as thatch reed. It will be produced by a Reed Farmer (who uses a shovel) at a Reed Farm (like barbarian Reed Yard).


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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2017-06-23, 18:03

Idea for a simplification:


Busy indexing nil values

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