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Topic: "Northmen" Tribe Page

kaputtnik
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Posted at: 2017-06-23, 20:37

What does "Silver fur clothes" mean? If this is made with silver there is a need for Silver mines. Or should this be come from the Mud Mine?


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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2017-06-24, 00:03

Nordfriese wrote:

The farm radius is a typo. I meant 3 – one larger than other farms. But smaller than that would be really inefficient.

I took the "wall" from the wiki page. I think it is something like a barrier. Having instead a "Barrier" or "Watch Post" would make more sense.

As for the too many wares: I removed salt, turf and mussles; berries and mushrooms are the same ware. Is this simplified enough or are there still too many?

looks reasonable: enough to be distinctive, not too many to be overly confusing.

so, do I get the impression that there is a consensus "is stronger on harsh terrain" and "better in late game" are the distintive traits we want to give this tribe, or there are disagreements? because we should plan with those goals in mind. having many exotic wares required for training soldiers and having many buildings requiring large working radius, but small building plots, would be good for characterizing the tribe in that direction.


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teppo
Joined: 2012-01-30, 09:42
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Posted at: 2017-06-25, 10:40

king_of_nowhere wrote:

I'm thinking that the description given by nordfriese is a pretty complex economy; operating mines is very expensive, and the tribe would result weak.

Some things I would like to see around:

  • Training more food-limited than metal-limited. This could be done, for example, by making the training sites recycle training-grade weapons (possibly sub-100% efficiency) when the soldiers have improved. This fits together with inconvenient mines.

  • Training steps that are not really worth the trouble. Now it almost always pays to train soldiers to 100%. Having many (way more than two) food-and-drink intensive evade-like training steps, where the last ones give only a marginal gain for a huge price tag, would be fun.


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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2017-06-25, 12:03

teppo wrote:

Some things I would like to see around:

  • Training more food-limited than metal-limited. This could be done, for example, by making the training sites recycle training-grade weapons (possibly sub-100% efficiency) when the soldiers have improved. This fits together with inconvenient mines.

this is already the case with barbarians, simply because training requires bread, which is very expensive for them, while metal is mined with rations, made with just meat, which is very inexpensive. Also empire, as long as it has basic mines and plenty of fish, has more shortage of food rather than metal.

  • Training steps that are not really worth the trouble. Now it almost always pays to train soldiers to 100%. Having many (way more than two) food-and-drink intensive evade-like training steps, where the last ones give only a marginal gain for a huge price tag, would be fun.

this is already the case when both players are strong, because some defensive promotions do not change how many hits it will take to kill the soldiers. You may see in the replay of the last tournament in the last game that worldsavior completely skipped the defence promotions on atlanteans, and I skipped the last healt promotion on empire.


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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2017-06-25, 12:12

Silver fur clothes are made with iron. They are only called "Silver" because it sounds better than "iron clothes", and because iron has a silvery shine.

I already started scripting the things that nobody seems to disagree with, especially basic stuff like woodcutters and quarries. There are lots of small buildings, a number of medium ones and very few big buildings. I decided against mushrooms growing under trees, so we have just berries, which are planted by a berry farmer. I added the tag "flowering" to all medium-sized berry bushes and fields, and bees only produce honey when there are flowering immovables nearby. The tribe has a difficult start, because the production chain for bricks is very complex and it is very easy to get deadlocked early. Removing rations from the mud mine would simplify things a lot.

teppo wrote:

Some things I would like to see around:

  • Training more food-limited than metal-limited. This could be done, for example, by making the training sites recycle training-grade weapons (possibly sub-100% efficiency) when the soldiers have improved. This fits together with inconvenient mines.

Good idea, I always wondered where the discarded weapons go face-smile.png Since the mines are so inefficient, I agree we could recycle swords, helmets and fur clothes. This shouldn´t be entirely for free, but we could have a low-cost recycling centre that turns the ware "discarded weapons" into iron.

  • Training steps that are not really worth the trouble. Now it almost always pays to train soldiers to 100%. Having many (way more than two) food-and-drink intensive evade-like training steps, where the last ones give only a marginal gain for a huge price tag, would be fun.

Are you sure? If my training site used up tons of expensive food for nearly nothing, I simply wouldn´t use it. It would only be annoying because I´d always have to keep an eye on all training sites to prevent such undesired training to take place. Training a soldier should always be worth the costs.


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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2017-06-25, 13:57

How about "Studded fur clothing" for the iron-enhanced clothes?


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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2017-06-25, 14:55

Nordfriese wrote:

The farm radius is a typo. I meant 3 – one larger than other farms.

Okay.

But smaller than that would be really inefficient.

Not necessarily

I took the "wall" from the wiki page. I think it is something like a barrier. Having instead a "Barrier" or "Watch Post" would make more sense.

Okay. Yes. Maybe not "barrier", because it's not a barrier, but a building face-wink.png

king_of_nowhere wrote:

so, do I get the impression that there is a consensus "is stronger on harsh terrain" and "better in late game" are the distintive traits we want to give this tribe, or there are disagreements?

At least I can say that "better in late game" would make a lot of sense.

because we should plan with those goals in mind.

Yes, planning early makes sense

teppo wrote:

king_of_nowhere wrote:

I'm thinking that the description given by nordfriese is a pretty complex economy; operating mines is very expensive, and the tribe would result weak.

Some things I would like to see around:

  • Training more food-limited than metal-limited. This could be done, for example, by making the training sites recycle training-grade weapons (possibly sub-100% efficiency) when the soldiers have improved. This fits together with inconvenient mines.

I would like to see a tribe which can recycle too

  • Training steps that are not really worth the trouble. Now it almost always pays to train soldiers to 100%. Having many (way more than two) food-and-drink intensive evade-like training steps, where the last ones give only a marginal gain for a huge price tag, would be fun.

king_of_nowhere wrote:

teppo wrote:

Some things I would like to see around:

  • Training more food-limited than metal-limited. This could be done, for example, by making the training sites recycle training-grade weapons (possibly sub-100% efficiency) when the soldiers have improved. This fits together with inconvenient mines.

this is already the case with barbarians, simply because training requires bread, which is very expensive for them, while metal is mined with rations, made with just meat, which is very inexpensive.

Also empire, as long as it has basic mines and plenty of fish, has more shortage of food rather than metal.

Well, you also have to take smithies, taverns, smelting works and mines in mind. So probably bread is cheaper than weapons face-wink.png

Nordfriese wrote:

I already started scripting the things that nobody seems to disagree with,

Probably the community needs more time face-wink.png

The tribe has a difficult start, because the production chain for bricks is very complex and it is very easy to get deadlocked early.

Personally, I don't like deadlocks

Removing rations from the mud mine would simplify things a lot.

But it's a mine... Why shouldn't it consume rations? face-wink.png

teppo wrote:

Some things I would like to see around:

  • Training more food-limited than metal-limited. This could be done, for example, by making the training sites recycle training-grade weapons (possibly sub-100% efficiency) when the soldiers have improved. This fits together with inconvenient mines.

Good idea, I always wondered where the discarded weapons go face-smile.png

Me too. I think it's just a mistake in the game conception - even though you could argue that the soldiers train with their current equipment until it breaks.... (Doesn't make much sense for armor)

  • Training steps that are not really worth the trouble. Now it almost always pays to train soldiers to 100%. Having many (way more than two) food-and-drink intensive evade-like training steps, where the last ones give only a marginal gain for a huge price tag, would be fun.

Are you sure? If my training site used up tons of expensive food for nearly nothing, I simply wouldn´t use it. It would only be annoying because I´d always have to keep an eye on all training sites to prevent such undesired training to take place. Training a soldier should always be worth the costs.

+1


“It's a threat to our planet to believe that someone else will save it.” - Robert Swan

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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2017-06-25, 15:34

Scripting was easier and faster than I expected, so the tribe is already playable now. These are the buildings I currently have (not sorted in any order, sorry face-smile.png ):

  • Productionsites: aqua_farm blacksmithy coalmine_deep furnace mead_brewery rockmine tannery armour_smithy brewery collectors_house goldmine mud_mine rockmine_deep tavern bakery brick_burners_house drinking_hall goldmine_deep quarry scouts_house weaving_mill barracks charcoal_kiln farm hunters_house recycling_centre seamstress well beekeepers_house clay_burners_house fishers_house ironmine reed_farm shipyard woodcutters_house berry_farm coalmine foresters_house ironmine_deep reindeer_farm sweetbread_bakery

  • Trainingsites: training_arena training_camp

  • Warehouses: headquarters port warehouse

  • Militarysites: fortress outpost sentinel tower wooden_tower

And I have these workers: baker blacksmith carrier farmer geologist miner_master scout soldier woodcutter baker_master brewer charcoal_burner fisher hunter reed_farmer seamstress stonemason beekeeper brewer_master clay_burner forester landlady reindeer shipwright tanner berry_farmer builder digger fruit_collector miner reindeer_breeder smelter trainer

And the new wares: barley bread_frisians brick clay fruit fur fur_clothes_silver fur_clothes_golden fur_clothes helmet_golden honey mud needles scrap_metal sword_basic sword_long sword_curved sword_double

The trainingsites produce scrap metal, which is turned into iron at the recycling centre as: 3 scrap + 1 coal = 2 iron

I removed rations from the mud mine because deadlocks get very hard to avoid otherwise. You´d need a tavern, a smokery or bakery, a brewery, a farm… It´s just too much. Perhaps we could deliver fruit or smoked meat/fish there directly.

The medium military building is now called Outpost. The small buildings are Wooden Tower and Sentinel. I renamed the sweetbread to Honey Bread and the silver fur clothes to Studded Fur Clothing, but this affects only the descnames (not the internal ware and file names).

Barley grows half as fast as wheat, which is why I think the farm really needs its large working radius.

I did not play a complete test game yet, but I will do so soon. I did not add any AI-hints, so AI cannot play as this tribe yet.


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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2017-06-25, 15:36

The recycling idea has been discussed before: https://bugs.launchpad.net/widelands/+bug/1493221

I'm certainly not against it unless it makes gameplay too complicated. Gameplay always trumps realism.


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JanO
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Joined: 2015-08-02, 11:56
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Posted at: 2017-06-25, 22:05

I have two ideas on the recycling-issue:

  • The trainingsites could just give some ore or steel (maybe 1/3 of the formerly cost of the equipment) each time a soldier is enhanced. This way there would be no need for an additional building.

  • Dismissing buildings is kind of recycling as well. To reduce the problem of deadlocks, the amount of materials given back from a dismissed building could be raised (at least for simple, basic buildings made of mud). Dismissing buildings and rebuilding complete parts of the economy to optimize land-use could become a speciality for this tribe (a little bit like nomads?)


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