Latest Posts

Topic: Tempo Training Tournament

hessenfarmer
Avatar
Joined: 2014-12-11, 23:16
Posts: 1330
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Location: Bavaria
Posted at: 2020-04-27, 17:12

niektory wrote:

hessenfarmer wrote:

May I ask if you could provide us with this spreadsheet in the balancing thread. As it really might help to see where we could achieve the most with the least invasion in game.

Not sure if it'll be useful, but OK. Attached.

Thanks a lot! Iwas always to lazy to compile something like this. It definitly helps me.


Top Quote
king_of_nowhere
Avatar
Joined: 2014-09-15, 18:35
Posts: 1609
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Posted at: 2020-04-27, 17:36

niektory wrote:

hessenfarmer wrote:

May I ask if you could provide us with this spreadsheet in the balancing thread. As it really might help to see where we could achieve the most with the least invasion in game.

Not sure if it'll be useful, but OK. Attached.

I am most interested in how much ores does a mine produce, since it's not linear 1 food - 1 ore, and it often depends on working cycle specifics.

in fact, this limitation has always stopped me from optimizing my mines and food economy too hard.


Top Quote
hessenfarmer
Avatar
Joined: 2014-12-11, 23:16
Posts: 1330
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Location: Bavaria
Posted at: 2020-04-27, 17:40

king_of_nowhere wrote:

niektory wrote:

hessenfarmer wrote:

May I ask if you could provide us with this spreadsheet in the balancing thread. As it really might help to see where we could achieve the most with the least invasion in game.

Not sure if it'll be useful, but OK. Attached.

I am most interested in how much ores does a mine produce, since it's not linear 1 food - 1 ore, and it often depends on working cycle specifics.

in fact, this limitation has always stopped me from optimizing my mines and food economy too hard.

we improved the ingame help a lot for this case. you have to look at the desired ware and you see what needs to be invested in which mine.

Edit: you could take the information from the lua files as well.

Edited: 2020-04-27, 17:40

Top Quote
the-x
Avatar
Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23
Posts: 446
Ranking
Tribe Member
Posted at: 2020-04-27, 17:47

hessenfarmer wrote:

king_of_nowhere wrote:

niektory wrote:

hessenfarmer wrote:

May I ask if you could provide us with this spreadsheet in the balancing thread. As it really might help to see where we could achieve the most with the least invasion in game.

Not sure if it'll be useful, but OK. Attached.

I am most interested in how much ores does a mine produce, since it's not linear 1 food - 1 ore, and it often depends on working cycle specifics.

in fact, this limitation has always stopped me from optimizing my mines and food economy too hard.

we improved the ingame help a lot for this case. you have to look at the desired ware and you see what needs to be invested in which mine.

Edit: you could take the information from the lua files as well.

This is a very nice Idea - i think what i completely missed in my hero building times was that costs of wares and i steadily produced to much coal, i had 7 in the end, whilst world savior 0 - probably this made him one whole minute faster.

Also what is very nice is that the production is not completely linear, as the it would be boring, but still like atlantean cristall mine, this is excellent.


Top Quote
king_of_nowhere
Avatar
Joined: 2014-09-15, 18:35
Posts: 1609
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Posted at: 2020-04-27, 18:19

hessenfarmer wrote:

we improved the ingame help a lot for this case. you have to look at the desired ware and you see what needs to be invested in which mine.

great! i never noticed

Edit: you could take the information from the lua files as well.

for most buildings yes, but the mines had a thing with working cycles where they would produce differently if they had a continuous food supply or if they had to stop and restart.

or at least they used to. perhaps that was changed too.


Top Quote
niektory
Avatar
Joined: 2019-06-03, 20:06
Posts: 101
Ranking
Likes to be here
Location: Poland
Posted at: 2020-04-27, 18:25

king_of_nowhere wrote:

I am most interested in how much ores does a mine produce, since it's not linear 1 food - 1 ore, and it often depends on working cycle specifics.

in fact, this limitation has always stopped me from optimizing my mines and food economy too hard.

As hessenfarmer mentioned, the in-game Tribes Encyclopedia has this information. It's slightly unintuitive as if you want to check how much coal a coal mine produces you need to read the "coal" entry, not the "coal mine" entry.

The working cycles are straightforward. They always produce the same amount and consume the same amount of wares. The only unusual ones are the marble mine and the crystal mine. And I don't know how exhaused mines work exactly.


Top Quote
hessenfarmer
Avatar
Joined: 2014-12-11, 23:16
Posts: 1330
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Location: Bavaria
Posted at: 2020-04-27, 18:49

niektory wrote:

king_of_nowhere wrote:

I am most interested in how much ores does a mine produce, since it's not linear 1 food - 1 ore, and it often depends on working cycle specifics.

in fact, this limitation has always stopped me from optimizing my mines and food economy too hard.

As hessenfarmer mentioned, the in-game Tribes Encyclopedia has this information. It's slightly unintuitive as if you want to check how much coal a coal mine produces you need to read the "coal" entry, not the "coal mine" entry.

The working cycles are straightforward. They always produce the same amount and consume the same amount of wares. The only unusual ones are the marble mine and the crystal mine. And I don't know how exhaused mines work exactly.

completely exhausted mines have as much attempts as wares are mined in a normal cycle. each attempt has 5% chance to deliver something except barbarian and frisian deepest mines which have 10%. Shortly before depleting completely the chances to find something gradually are decreasing.


Top Quote
hessenfarmer
Avatar
Joined: 2014-12-11, 23:16
Posts: 1330
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Location: Bavaria
Posted at: 2020-04-27, 19:03

king_of_nowhere wrote:

hessenfarmer wrote:

we improved the ingame help a lot for this case. you have to look at the desired ware and you see what needs to be invested in which mine.

great! i never noticed

Edit: you could take the information from the lua files as well.

for most buildings yes, but the mines had a thing with working cycles where they would produce differently if they had a continuous food supply or if they had to stop and restart.

or at least they used to. perhaps that was changed too.

they had an issue when being depleted as the first failed mining attempt failled all others so it was less then 5%. that was fixed thanks to input from WorldSavior


Top Quote
niektory
Avatar
Joined: 2019-06-03, 20:06
Posts: 101
Ranking
Likes to be here
Location: Poland
Posted at: 2020-04-27, 19:26

The only unusual ones are the marble mine and the crystal mine.

To clarify, after the recent bugfix they should work as follows. The marble mine has two programs, mine_granite and mine_marble:

  • mine_granite produces: granite, granite, marble, granite.
  • mine_marble produces: marble, marble, granite, marble.

They are run alternately, so after every 2 runs you should always get 4 granite and 4 marble. I believe pauses in food delivery and production do not affect this cycle, at least according to my tests. If you notice they do in new versions please report it.

The crystal mine works similarly, but it has 3 programs (mine_granite, mine_quartz and mine_diamond) and some of them can be skipped if there is no economy demand for the ware in the program's name.

  • mine_granite produces: granite, granite, granite, quartz, granite, granite
  • mine_quartz produces: quartz, granite, granite, granite, quartz, quartz
  • mine_diamond produces: diamond, granite, diamond

Oh, and I just remembered another bug that's still open and can disrupt the working cycle but I believe it's fairly rare and primarily triggered by micromanaging stored input wares: Production site work interrupted when worker fetches ware from flag #3856


Top Quote
WorldSavior
Avatar
Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
Posts: 1580
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Location: North of Germany
Posted at: 2020-04-27, 20:50

king_of_nowhere wrote:

now that we have results, I opened a thread to discuss balance adjustments. Because I think, if we want the game to focus on economy, we should not give the players the option to skip economy to get heroes immediately with their starting stock and a handful of buildings.

-1 because of game diversity. One already has to build full economies for long distance fights.

hessenfarmer wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

The replays of bzr9220 should also be watchable with master6646.

I'm going to wonder now what I should do with the-x' results, as the files seem to be not complete (aren't they?) and I'll calculate the results....

I propose you do what the rules say about replays and files to be uploaded.

Okay. However, the rules don't say that one should not rename the replays in a chaotic way....

@Niektory and WorldSavior: congratulations to such impressive results.

the-x wrote:

Congrats to World Saviour for the close win

Thanks

kaputtnik wrote:

All the best for your father!

Tournament rules are tournament rules. And the tournament has ended. Fair sportsmen comply to the rules.

+1

the-x wrote:

I tried it out and the savegames of all 5 tribes are working. there you can clearly see that the time is correct

No, savegames are not enough for that

the-x wrote:

I am happy to have the new record for the fastest Hero of the Amazons :-) since this specific replay didnt work so far, ill upload it again with the 2 wpga so everything should be complete

Not really. The replay doesn't work. It desyncs immediately, and forcing it to continue leads to a crash immediately. This is something which I would expect from a manipulated match. And how should only two rare tree plantations generate enough wood for such a result?

kaputtnik wrote:

In my opinion every replay uploaded later does not count.

+1

But of course WorldSavior, as the tournament leader, has the last word.

Might be true, but I regret now that I haven’t searched a referee. But if a widelands.org-Tournament lacks a referee, the admins are referees by default, so to speak face-wink.png

the-x wrote:

Well played Niektory - how did you achieve these dream times,

He simply played almost as close to perfection as I did face-wink.png

And he found strategies for BAR and FRI which turned to be out better than mine. They are remarkable, who ever thought that one has to start with THREE BLACKSMITHS with frisians? The barbarian match is much less crazy, but it involves some very clever shuffeling of the soldier between the trainingssites. And an amazing trick which has not been discovered before.

niektory wrote:

king_of_nowhere wrote:

also, congrats niektory! it's been a long time since someone managed to best worldsavior at anything in this game.

Alas, he was still better. As Boromir would say, one does not simply best WorldSavior.

face-grin.png

alasiaxx wrote:

Hello everyone, I also had a go at the tournament, not to compete with others so much as to work on improving my own times. I figured I'd post to encourage other less experienced players to take part and enjoy the challenge for the sake of it. I'll admit though that it was satisfying to produce an Empire hero at 39.57 last week when the then best published time was 42.03!

My times are as follows: Barbarian: 44.24 on bzr9220

Empire: 36.19 on bzr9220

Atlantian: 29.57 on bzr9220

Frisian: 57.10 on bzr9278

I've not played with the Amazons - compiling Widelands on my ancient systems has proven to be an exercise in frustration. Obviously, no save games attached since this is my first post here, and the competition has concluded anyway.

Hi, nice results!

hessenfarmer wrote:

king_of_nowhere wrote:

speaking of multiplayer, i will try to host a regular tournament this summer.

great news.

+1 even though this is not really "news" as some months ago it was already stated by him face-wink.png

And again many thanks to our current host.

You're welcome

the-x wrote:

I just searched for the last four missing replay files it was a lot of work since replay folder only saves numbers and from time you can only guess and it is nearly impossible for those if you tested balance / played a multiplayer game.

No, I managed to do that without big problems and most others too

blind3rdeye wrote: Please correct me if I'm wrong; but as I understand it, the cool-down for metal working is on the building itself, not the worker; but the experience is on the worker, not the building. So you can increase the rate at which your worker gains experience by having two metal-workshops next to each other, and kick the worker out whenever they finish a cycle. (So that instead of waiting for the cooldown, they just walk to the building next door and start working again immediately.)

No, the last what smiths do is producing, then they gain XP. They are not like woodcutters.

I've been playing some 'poor hamlet' / 'struggling outpost' starts recently, and I've used this trick to speed up wood-cutting.

Thanks for unveiling this bug. Must be fixed for many buildings imho

It could be easily done by building a third metal workshop; but at that point I suppose we have the risk of running out of starting resources!

Lol, didn't you watch niektory's Frisian match? face-wink.png

In any case, my point is that I think the hard-minimum could still be a bit lower. (So then, now you all have my secret strategy, and I'm sure someone will use it to win in a future tournament!)

Or the bug gets fixed and everything is fine face-wink.png

Tempo Training Tournament Twenty Twenty terminated!

It has received its last replays yesterday before 6 pm CEST and is over.

So, I’d like to write something about every participant.

Kaputtnik reached with empire probably a better result than many players who didn’t participate.

Ektor managed to beat him, which might be surprising because he has always been a Barbarian player while Kaputtnik is rather an Empire player.

Stmyr made a good tournament debut, managing to beat hessenfarmer in both categories.

the-x uploaded something what looked like 4 replays, but without renaming them nothing worked, and only one worked, another worked with the help of trying which part belongs to which replay. So he finishes "only" on rank five, and if participants feel disadvantaged because I let his results count, they can inform me about that and I try to find a solution.

hessenfarmer was leading the ranking a long time, but unfortunately the result in the end counts. However he showed that he can play all tribes on a good level.

king_of_nowhere played even stronger, and despite he didn't manage to reach the top2 for the first time, he still reached a very respectable third place and is still the only record participant of Widelands Tournaments (7 out of 10 possible participations).

And then there is niektory who showed a sensational performance, reaching the best times in two categories, being only 20 seconds in the amazon category away from the complete viektory. Which sounds a little bit painful, but at the other hand it is still an incredible result. His barbarian record involved a special trick which he might have invented (micromanaging soldier routes), and his frisian record involved an extremely creative and clever strategy (building three blacksmiths and later three big weaponsmiths). His average hero time is only 10 seconds slower than mine.

Nevertheless I'm the winner. Again. Sorry for that face-wink.png I played slightly better in the imperial and amazon matches, and just had the best strategy for atlanteans.

Tournament results

Points:

No. Player Points Best time
1 WorldSavior 33 16:35
2 niektory 32 17:38
3 king_of_nowhere 24 19:58
4 hessenfarmer 16 27:21
5 the-x 9 20:05
6 stmyr 7 38:04
7 ektor 3 42:08
8 kaputtnik 1 50:11

Frisians:

No. Player Exact time Version
1 niektory 30:15 ama6762
2 WorldSavior 30:53 bzr9220
(replay missing) (the-x) (31:35) (ama6762)
3 king_of_nowhere 34:00 ama6762
4 stmyr 38:33 ama6762
5 hessenfarmer 38:58 ama6762

Empire:

No. Player Exact time Version
1 WorldSavior 20:45 bzr9220
2 niektory 21:13 ama6762
3 king_of_nowhere 29:45 ama6762
(replay too late) (the-x) (32:27) (ama6762)
4 hessenfarmer 42:03 ama6762
5 ektor 45:05 b20
6 kaputtnik 50:11 mr6646

Barbarians:

No. Player Exact time Version
1 niektory 26:03 ama6762
2 WorldSavior 26:27 bzr9220
3 the-x 32:20 ama6762
4 king_of_nowhere 32:27 ama6762
5 stmyr 38:04 ama6762
6 hessenfarmer 40:05 ama6762
7 ektor 42:08 b20

Atlanteans:

No. Player Exact time Version
1 WorldSavior 16:35 bzr9220
2 niektory 17:38 ama6762
3 king_of_nowhere 19:58 ama6762
4 the-x 20:05 ama6762
5 hessenfarmer 27:21 ama6762

Amazons:

No. Player Exact time Version
1 WorldSavior 23:23 ama6762
2 niektory 23:43 ama6762
3 king_of_nowhere 24:44 ama6762
4 hessenfarmer 50:41 ama6762
Edited: 2020-04-27, 20:53

“It's a threat to our planet to believe that someone else will save it.” - Robert Swan

Top Quote