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Topic: Frisian Balancing

hessenfarmer
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Joined: 2014-12-11, 23:16
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Location: Bavaria
Posted at: 2019-05-19, 19:31

teppo wrote:

I would vote to change nothing here as meat was only considered a by-product, that gives the frisian some extra buffer. But they should not aim at producing meat. Their infinite source is fish from the aqua farms.
Alternatively we could skip the meat in total.

I still think otherwise, and would be sorry to see the meat going away.

If we keep things as they are now, then would there be a way to alter the tribal encyclopedia so that it is more obvious to the reader that he wants fish, not meat?

Then we should do so for all tribes as I can't remember any hint for their infinite food source as well. But in general I think this is a good idea.


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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2019-05-19, 21:28

hessenfarmer wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

Found this as well. and I would vote to at least adopt the stock of the atlantean one to fit the production consumption.

This stock would make more sense, but it's not like atlanteans are underpowered face-wink.png

Sure they are not but I think at least we should remove two logs and add one meat and one fish. I don't think that this should get them much more power.

Okay, true. Good idea...

No... Mead is preferred because it's above honeybread (if you look at the stored wares in the arena).

You are right I forgot about this one. Although there is an open bug to make this round robin but this is not that easy.

Round robin? Why should it be a bug? Currently it's good that the arena prefers mead because honey bread is also needed in drinking halls.

Maybe it is not a bug it is more an opinion and the bug report wasn't filed by me. I just wanted to tell that there is an opinion that the current design preferring a ware in a group of either isn't optimal.

Okay. I would like to say that it's optimal that many buildings prefer cheaper wares (like meat over bread and so forth).

So for the moment we have a demand of 5 mead and 3 honeybread every 99,8 seconds. Thanks for clarifying.

The relation is correct, but not the time. It's not like 100s but more like 180.

Can't follow you even wehen takin into acoount the time to carry out the crap produced I get 7 * 3,8 + 3 * 22,8 + 2 * 15,6 = 126,2 for the training arena.

I measured that. Trainingssites also have some sleep programs between their other programs, they are mentioned in the lua files, but you cannot figure out just from the lua files how everything works.

Is it intentional that the reindeer farm does not produce meat, unless there is shortage of fur?

Another reason to keep it like it is, cause if we introduce the or condition one could set the demand for fur to a low value and increase the meat demand, so the fur would be a by-product of meat production which is definitely not intended.

That problem could be made go away also by making the step that produces both fur and meat could be more expensive that the one producing fur only. There is a separate consume-line for each work cycle, does something prevent adding double barley to the meat-part?

Well, fur would be more expensive then, which is also not so good.

because of the aqua farms, which should be more efficient.

They currently are not.

I dont' think so. Reindeer farms need at least 3 (!) barley to produce one meat.

I would vote to change nothing here as meat was only considered a by-product, that gives the frisian some extra buffer. But they should not aim at producing meat. Their infinite source is fish from the aqua farms.
Alternatively we could skip the meat in total.

I wouldn't mind to leave this untouched neither.

teppo wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

Is it intentional that the reindeer farm does not produce meat, unless there is shortage of fur?

Another reason to keep it like it is, cause if we introduce the or condition one could set the demand for fur to a low value and increase the meat demand, so the fur would be a by-product of meat production which is definitely not intended.

That problem could be made go away also by making the step that produces both fur and meat could be more expensive that the one producing fur only. There is a separate consume-line for each work cycle, does something prevent adding double barley to the meat-part?

Well, fur would be more expensive then, which is also not so good.

??

Yes, fur from farms get's 33% more expensive, which is not so good.

There are many work-cycles involved. Currently, the step producing both meat and fur is the last one, which means that it gets seldom executed, except if the reindeer farm is running near full capacity.

Nope, it doesn't work that way. The chance that meat is produced is still 33%.


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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2019-05-19, 21:46

by the way, is it just me or frisian metal economy seems especially sluggish? It takes a lot of furnaces to keep the training sites going. It also takes more than a single couple of armor smiths.

incidentally, the training sites cycle could also be improved. So far, it trains weapon, healt and defence, then it runs out of healt and defence promotions, then it makes all weapon promotions at once. it generates a discontinuity in the economy requests, which can be annoying because soldiers can be kicked because something is missing. Also, I've seen that frisian training sites kick out soldiers also when stopped, something you don't want to happen. those are not really related to balance, would just make management easier


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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2019-05-20, 01:09

king_of_nowhere wrote:

by the way, is it just me or frisian metal economy seems especially sluggish?

Just because berry farms and honey bread baking is so slow, I guess

It takes a lot of furnaces to keep the training sites going.

Just some more than barbarians need. But it's true, Frisians need a lot of metal, every trainings step needs metal...

It also takes more than a single couple of armor smiths.

That's normal...

incidentally, the training sites cycle could also be improved. So far, it trains weapon, healt and defence, then it runs out of healt and defence promotions, then it makes all weapon promotions at once. it generates a discontinuity in the economy requests, which can be annoying because soldiers can be kicked because something is missing.

I think that it's not that bad that the small trainingssite trains like this, because the first three trainingssteps are the only ones which are possible in the beginning. At the other hand one could let Frisians trainingssites skip trainingssteps if the wares are not available, then one could change the program order without a problem, because it wouldn't make the training slower.

Also, I've seen that frisian training sites kick out soldiers also when stopped, something you don't want to happen.

True, but I see this also at other tribes.


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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2019-05-20, 02:38

WorldSavior wrote:

It also takes more than a single couple of armor smiths.

That's normal...

Is it? With atlanteans, I can get a dungeon going at 100% with a single weapon smith if I'm not producing new soldiers. And I think with empire also I can run the training camp with a single weapon smith and armor smith.

With frisians, I had a small armor smith and a large armor smith, and both were working at 100% and were full of wares, and still I run out of broadswords.

Also, I've seen that frisian training sites kick out soldiers also when stopped, something you don't want to happen.

True, but I see this also at other tribes.

I haven't since the last version. I did play through all the campaigns, and with the other tribes I did not observe this behavior.


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-05-20, 09:57

king_of_nowhere wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

It also takes more than a single couple of armor smiths.

That's normal...

Is it? With atlanteans, I can get a dungeon going at 100% with a single weapon smith if I'm not producing new soldiers. And I think with empire also I can run the training camp with a single weapon smith and armor smith.

according to the values in the lua files the dungeon cycle runs for approx. 140 sec while forging of every weapon needs 77 secs each so this can't be the case. Statisitics is sometimes weird though.

With frisians, I had a small armor smith and a large armor smith, and both were working at 100% and were full of wares, and still I run out of broadswords.

Also, I've seen that frisian training sites kick out soldiers also when stopped, something you don't want to happen.

True, but I see this also at other tribes.

I haven't since the last version. I did play through all the campaigns, and with the other tribes I did not observe this behavior.

the kickout mechanism isn't specific to frisians so this should not be tribe specific. Maybe only Frisian trainers hve less patience so it might be more obvious with frisians.


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-12-08, 21:09

I have started implementing changes to the frisians from the non-atlanteans need a buff thread but will continue with the changes discussed here: Here is what has bee done so far in the branch https://github.com/widelands/widelands/tree/balancing-201908

Frisians

  • adapt farmers work cycle to match the other tribes (reduced sleep times in the building and slightly reduced some animations of the worker.)
  • reduce food cost for training:
    -- Broad sword needs (bread) and (smoked fish or smoked meat) (just to make sure we can't operate fully without bakery, as this would have been the result from the original proposal) -- Double sword needs (beer) and (smoked fish or smoked meat) -- Second Long sword needs (mead or honey bread) and (1 smoked fish/meat) -- Second broad sword needs (mead or honey bread) and (2 smoked fish/meat)

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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-12-08, 21:47

ok this is what I believe to be consensus

to do

  • speed up honey bread bakery
  • eventually speed up mead brewery slightly
  • make blacksmithy a small building with less input (would need a small graphics change from Nordfriese though)
  • make charcoal kiln a small building as well (graphics adaptation)
  • eventually make charcoal kiln a space consumer (only if Nordfriese can provide graphics for smoking coal stacks)
  • reduce input of the aqua farm a bit
  • harmonize timings of berry farms with collectors
  • slightly reduce buildcosts for (smokery, reindeer farm, furnace, recycling center, large amor smithy, drinking hall
  • speed up furnace

anything else?


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WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
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Posted at: 2019-12-09, 06:01

hessenfarmer wrote:

anything else?

I've already forgotten what I've exactly suggested. Only point which is not on the list and which I remember is the growth probability of berries depending on terrain. For example on blackland maps berries grow usually very bad, maybe this is worth another change.


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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2019-12-09, 07:46
  • make blacksmithy a small building with less input (would need a small graphics change from Nordfriese though)

-1. All buildings that process wares (except atl goldspinner, and with reservations fri claypit) are medium or big. This should stay as it is.

+1 for the other suggestions.


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