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Topic: Frisian Balancing

hessenfarmer
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Joined: 2014-12-11, 23:16
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Posted at: 2019-05-17, 10:27

Nordfriese wrote:

What if a smoker initially places one smoking hut (immovable small) to perform his task this would reduce a medium to 2 small spots used.

I think this would go too far away from the tribe´s character. We should keep this idea around for possible future tribes (nomads?) though...

ok so the smoker stays as it is. However all smokeries (especially the atlantean one) store too much log in relation to their usage I think we could savely reduce this to 4 as it would be a waste of ressources. For the atlanteans we could increase the amount of meat and fish in return to 6 as it is with the frisians.

So I believe a Frisian charcoal kiln with this new design could smoothly operate with 5 logs and 2 clay.

Ok

For this reason I think the aqua farm does store much to much wares as well this could be savely reduced to 2 fruit and 4 water which means a complete cycle as buffer.

On the other hand, one cycle as buffer is not that much for such an important building, perhaps 5 water + 3 fruit?

I think we should test 2 fruit 4 water and if this is a problem I could live with your values. However this buffer is only to cover for a weak road system. in the end you need to supply the building properly


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WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
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Posted at: 2019-05-17, 12:54

Nordfriese wrote:

first, berry farms and fruit collectors have a problem in that the collector has the same range of the farm.

I disagree, the collectors have two more range points, so they can collect everything if you place them directly next to the farm. But I wonder if berry farms are efficient enough. Even if you have good soil they are ineffective, and then there can be maps whith very bad soil which makes it even worse.

The radius is fine, trouble only arises if you place them far apart. I usually have 3 farms for 2 collectors running smoothly, but the berry farm could be made a bit faster

Yes, for example fast enough to keep one collector busy. And maybe growth probabilities should be increased as well. For example hard soils are the blackland terrain with best tree growth, so maps can be made from them but then berries grow very bad.

Yes, for example honey bread bakeries are very slow, and training consumes a lot of food

OK, which buildings should be sped up?

  • Honey bread bakery and mead brewery

Speading up honey bread baking would be meaningful because bakeries are usually much faster than breweries (like now, baking honey bread takes as much time as brewing). The speed of the normal Frisian bakery is fine and could be a benchmark.

Mead breweries are as fast as any other brewery I guess...

  • Smokery?

I don't think that it's necessary, because it's already faster than the atlantean one, and has better stock.

  • Normal bakery and brewery are fine IMHO

+1

  • Tavern/drinking hall are also fine

+1

king_of_nowhere wrote:

5 fields are enough for farms of other tribes, allowing you to place farms on a 4x4 grid with roads. even 4 fields get you close to 100%. I don't really know about frisians.

You can place frisian farms on 4x4-grids, but then you will have to cut some roads.

hessenfarmer wrote:

I made some calculations now regarding the honeybread bakery and the mead brewery. First we should equalize the demand in the training arena cause currently it requires 3 mead and 3 honey bread and 2 times it needs either honeybread or mead. > Due to the order in the program it prefers both time honeybread.

No... Mead is preferred because it's above honeybread (if you look at the stored wares in the arena).

with a demand of 4 mead and 4 honeybread we would need 4 mead breweries and 3,6 Honeybread bakeries to support 1 fully running arena.

I think that you have miscalculated somewhere. 2 mead breweries are enough, if they don't produce any beer.

If we reduce the sleeping time of each program to half the sleeping time of the basic building (10 sec for bakery and 15 sec for brewery instead of 20 and 30)

Wait please, actually producing mead and honey bread both have a sleep time of 35sec. I suggest to let the honey bread bakery take as much time for honey bread as it takes for bread currently.

teppo wrote:

hessenfarmer wrote:

Is it intentional that the reindeer farm does not produce meat, unless there is shortage of fur?

I am not sure. Meat was designed to be only a by-product of the cycle. If an or statement works in this case we could use it in my eyes to ask for economies meat demand

I have a vague memory that "or" would work here.

Anyway, current way is a bit stupid. If one reads the config files, then he knows to increase target fur to ridiculously high value, to get more meat.. Not my favorite. Better to have a "needs fur or needs meat" there.

There would be a disadvantage: An unwanted overproduction of fur if one doesn't want to produce meat. It's not absolutely necessary to produce meat with reindeer farms, because of the aqua farms, which should be more efficient. In case berry production will get improved there should be no doubt about it...

king_of_nowhere wrote:

hessenfarmer wrote:

they have only a couple more medium buildings than the empire but in return they only have 3 big buildings (farm, reindeer farm and arena). So this already fits to the concept.

And yet I can make empire economy work in a small map like desert tournament or fjiords. I'd have no idea how to do that with frisians.

Well, Frisians are probably the hardest tribe to play and you have much more experience with any other tribe I guess...

Nordfriese wrote:

For this reason I think the aqua farm does store much to much wares as well this could be savely reduced to 2 fruit and 4 water which means a complete cycle as buffer.

On the other hand, one cycle as buffer is not that much for such an important building, perhaps 5 water + 3 fruit?

Or 8+4? Who says that aqua farms don't have a cellar (like the atlantean dungeon) for storing wares? face-wink.png

Topic: "Change medium buildings into small ones" - What about not changing the medium buildings, but adding small versions additionally? Then the players could decide if they would build the medium building in order to reach a higher store capacity, or the medium carcoal burner in order to not nead additionally space and so forth...


“It's a threat to our planet to believe that someone else will save it.” - Robert Swan

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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-05-17, 17:36

WorldSavior wrote:

The radius is fine, trouble only arises if you place them far apart. I usually have 3 farms for 2 collectors running smoothly, but the berry farm could be made a bit faster

Yes, for example fast enough to keep one collector busy. And maybe growth probabilities should be increased as well. For example hard soils are the blackland terrain with best tree growth, so maps can be made from them but then berries grow very bad.

having the same timing as a collector sounds reasonable. About the probabilities I have no opinion / expertise.

OK, which buildings should be sped up?

  • Honey bread bakery and mead brewery

Speading up honey bread baking would be meaningful because bakeries are usually much faster than breweries (like now, baking honey bread takes as much time as brewing). The speed of the normal Frisian bakery is fine and could be a benchmark.

Ok, with the reduced sleeptimes we would have been around 45 sec for honeybread and 30 sec for normal bread. (so we would produce also normal bread faster, at least we have a master baker in there who might / should be faster). But I could agree on having the same values as for normal bread. Only we will have less of the animations than ( I really like to see busy buildings and a lot of animations)

Mead breweries are as fast as any other brewery I guess...

Not exactly mead takes 10 seconds longer than other beers (including barbarian strong beer). we should adopt this to normal beer than as well probably.

  • Smokery?

I don't think that it's necessary, because it's already faster than the atlantean one, and has better stock.

Found this as well. and I would vote to at least adopt the stock of the atlantean one to fit the production consumption.

hessenfarmer wrote:

I made some calculations now regarding the honeybread bakery and the mead brewery. First we should equalize the demand in the training arena cause currently it requires 3 mead and 3 honey bread and 2 times it needs either honeybread or mead. > Due to the order in the program it prefers both time honeybread.

No... Mead is preferred because it's above honeybread (if you look at the stored wares in the arena).

You are right I forgot about this one. Although there is an open bug to make this round robin but this is not that easy. So for the moment we have a demand of 5 mead and 3 honeybread every 99,8 seconds. Thanks for clarifying.

with a demand of 4 mead and 4 honeybread we would need 4 mead breweries and 3,6 Honeybread bakeries to support 1 fully running arena.

I think that you have miscalculated somewhere. 2 mead breweries are enough, if they don't produce any beer.

Ok I calculated with the additional beer production cycle. but even without it the mead brewery produces 1 mead every 70 secs and we need 5 in 99,8 secs which results in the necessity of 3,5 mead breweries for me. with a cycle of 60 seconds we would need 3.

If we reduce the sleeping time of each program to half the sleeping time of the basic building (10 sec for bakery and 15 sec for brewery instead of 20 and 30)

Wait please, actually producing mead and honey bread both have a sleep time of 35sec. I suggest to let the honey bread bakery take as much time for honey bread as it takes for bread currently.

see above this was basically meant to have more animated time. (10 sec sleep 35 work) but we could do 20 / 20 as well.

teppo wrote:

hessenfarmer wrote:

Is it intentional that the reindeer farm does not produce meat, unless there is shortage of fur?

I am not sure. Meat was designed to be only a by-product of the cycle. If an or statement works in this case we could use it in my eyes to ask for economies meat demand

I have a vague memory that "or" would work here.

Anyway, current way is a bit stupid. If one reads the config files, then he knows to increase target fur to ridiculously high value, to get more meat.. Not my favorite. Better to have a "needs fur or needs meat" there.

There would be a disadvantage: An unwanted overproduction of fur if one doesn't want to produce meat. It's not absolutely necessary to produce meat with reindeer farms, because of the aqua farms, which should be more efficient. In case berry production will get improved there should be no doubt about it...

Another reason to keep it like it is, cause if we introduce the or condition one could set the demand for fur to a low value and increase the meat demand, so the fur would be a by-product of meat production which is definitely not intended.

Nordfriese wrote:

For this reason I think the aqua farm does store much to much wares as well this could be savely reduced to 2 fruit and 4 water which means a complete cycle as buffer.

On the other hand, one cycle as buffer is not that much for such an important building, perhaps 5 water + 3 fruit?

Or 8+4? Who says that aqua farms don't have a cellar (like the atlantean dungeon) for storing wares? face-wink.png

As said above I would like to have not more than 7 wares in a small building to keep some consistency between the tribes. this setting would increase the pressure for a good road network then. (btw: on most of the maps there is still plenty of fish available)

Topic: "Change medium buildings into small ones" - What about not changing the medium buildings, but adding small versions additionally? Then the players could decide if they would build the medium building in order to reach a higher store capacity, or the medium carcoal burner in order to not nead additionally space and so forth...

Although this could add some depth and I really would like that, I vote against this mainly for 2 reasons. The AI can't make the decisions necessary to handle this and it would be lot of effort for the graphics.


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king_of_nowhere
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Joined: 2014-09-15, 18:35
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Posted at: 2019-05-17, 21:27

my main problem so far has been having enough fruit. especially because I am now at the second mission in the campaign and on cold terrain fruit don't grow well. I could be in favor of making fruit production easier while leaving everything else the same.


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teppo
Joined: 2012-01-30, 09:42
Posts: 337
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Posted at: 2019-05-19, 09:50

hessenfarmer wrote:

Is it intentional that the reindeer farm does not produce meat, unless there is shortage of fur?

Another reason to keep it like it is, cause if we introduce the or condition one could set the demand for fur to a low value and increase the meat demand, so the fur would be a by-product of meat production which is definitely not intended.

That problem could be made go away also by making the step that produces both fur and meat could be more expensive that the one producing fur only. There is a separate consume-line for each work cycle, does something prevent adding double barley to the meat-part?

because of the aqua farms, which should be more efficient.

They currently are not. Anyway, even if they were, I would still prefer to have the "or" condition (or even remove the fur-part from trigger condition). If the meat would be too cheap, what prevents making it more expensive?

Edited: 2019-05-19, 09:53
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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2019-05-19, 13:49

hessenfarmer wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

The radius is fine, trouble only arises if you place them far apart. I usually have 3 farms for 2 collectors running smoothly, but the berry farm could be made a bit faster

Yes, for example fast enough to keep one collector busy. And maybe growth probabilities should be increased as well. For example hard soils are the blackland terrain with best tree growth, so maps can be made from them but then berries grow very bad.

having the same timing as a collector sounds reasonable. About the probabilities I have no opinion / expertise.

OK, which buildings should be sped up?

  • Honey bread bakery and mead brewery

Speading up honey bread baking would be meaningful because bakeries are usually much faster than breweries (like now, baking honey bread takes as much time as brewing). The speed of the normal Frisian bakery is fine and could be a benchmark.

Ok, with the reduced sleeptimes we would have been around 45 sec for honeybread and 30 sec for normal bread. (so we would produce also normal bread faster, at least we have a master baker in there who might / should be faster). But I could agree on having the same values as for normal bread. Only we will have less of the animations than ( I really like to see busy buildings and a lot of animations)

Mead breweries are as fast as any other brewery I guess...

Not exactly mead takes 10 seconds longer than other beers (including barbarian strong beer).

Oh yes, correct.

we should adopt this to normal beer than as well probably.

+1

  • Smokery?

I don't think that it's necessary, because it's already faster than the atlantean one, and has better stock.

Found this as well. and I would vote to at least adopt the stock of the atlantean one to fit the production consumption.

This stock would make more sense, but it's not like atlanteans are underpowered face-wink.png

hessenfarmer wrote:

I made some calculations now regarding the honeybread bakery and the mead brewery. First we should equalize the demand in the training arena cause currently it requires 3 mead and 3 honey bread and 2 times it needs either honeybread or mead. > Due to the order in the program it prefers both time honeybread.

No... Mead is preferred because it's above honeybread (if you look at the stored wares in the arena).

You are right I forgot about this one. Although there is an open bug to make this round robin but this is not that easy.

Round robin? Why should it be a bug? Currently it's good that the arena prefers mead because honey bread is also needed in drinking halls.

So for the moment we have a demand of 5 mead and 3 honeybread every 99,8 seconds. Thanks for clarifying.

The relation is correct, but not the time. It's not like 100s but more like 180.

king_of_nowhere wrote:

my main problem so far has been having enough fruit. especially because I am now at the second mission in the campaign and on cold terrain fruit don't grow well. I could be in favor of making fruit production easier while leaving everything else the same.

I don't think that fruit production should be the only thing which gets changed...

teppo wrote:

hessenfarmer wrote:

Is it intentional that the reindeer farm does not produce meat, unless there is shortage of fur?

Another reason to keep it like it is, cause if we introduce the or condition one could set the demand for fur to a low value and increase the meat demand, so the fur would be a by-product of meat production which is definitely not intended.

That problem could be made go away also by making the step that produces both fur and meat could be more expensive that the one producing fur only. There is a separate consume-line for each work cycle, does something prevent adding double barley to the meat-part?

Well, fur would be more expensive then, which is also not so good.

because of the aqua farms, which should be more efficient.

They currently are not.

I dont' think so. Reindeer farms need at least 3 (!) barley to produce one meat.


“It's a threat to our planet to believe that someone else will save it.” - Robert Swan

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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-05-19, 15:23

WorldSavior wrote:

Found this as well. and I would vote to at least adopt the stock of the atlantean one to fit the production consumption.

This stock would make more sense, but it's not like atlanteans are underpowered face-wink.png

Sure they are not but I think at least we should remove two logs and add one meat and one fish. I don't think that this should get them much more power.

No... Mead is preferred because it's above honeybread (if you look at the stored wares in the arena).

You are right I forgot about this one. Although there is an open bug to make this round robin but this is not that easy.

Round robin? Why should it be a bug? Currently it's good that the arena prefers mead because honey bread is also needed in drinking halls.

Maybe it is not a bug it is more an opinion and the bug report wasn't filed by me. I just wanted to tell that there is an opinion that the current design preferring a ware in a group of either isn't optimal.

So for the moment we have a demand of 5 mead and 3 honeybread every 99,8 seconds. Thanks for clarifying.

The relation is correct, but not the time. It's not like 100s but more like 180.

Can't follow you even wehen takin into acoount the time to carry out the crap produced I get 7 * 3,8 + 3 * 22,8 + 2 * 15,6 = 126,2 for the training arena.

Is it intentional that the reindeer farm does not produce meat, unless there is shortage of fur?

Another reason to keep it like it is, cause if we introduce the or condition one could set the demand for fur to a low value and increase the meat demand, so the fur would be a by-product of meat production which is definitely not intended.

That problem could be made go away also by making the step that produces both fur and meat could be more expensive that the one producing fur only. There is a separate consume-line for each work cycle, does something prevent adding double barley to the meat-part?

Well, fur would be more expensive then, which is also not so good.

because of the aqua farms, which should be more efficient.

They currently are not.

I dont' think so. Reindeer farms need at least 3 (!) barley to produce one meat.

I would vote to change nothing here as meat was only considered a by-product, that gives the frisian some extra buffer. But they should not aim at producing meat. Their infinite source is fish from the aqua farms.
Alternatively we could skip the meat in total.


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teppo
Joined: 2012-01-30, 09:42
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Posted at: 2019-05-19, 17:41

WorldSavior wrote:

Is it intentional that the reindeer farm does not produce meat, unless there is shortage of fur?

Another reason to keep it like it is, cause if we introduce the or condition one could set the demand for fur to a low value and increase the meat demand, so the fur would be a by-product of meat production which is definitely not intended.

That problem could be made go away also by making the step that produces both fur and meat could be more expensive that the one producing fur only. There is a separate consume-line for each work cycle, does something prevent adding double barley to the meat-part?

Well, fur would be more expensive then, which is also not so good.

??

There are many work-cycles involved. Currently, the step producing both meat and fur is the last one, which means that it gets seldom executed, except if the reindeer farm is running near full capacity. It would also be possible to change the fur and meat step to depend on meat only. If done, the price of fur would be unaffected (but fur would be produced somewhat slower, in case meat is not needed). Unsure if this would be an improvement.

I dont' think so. Reindeer farms need at least 3 (!) barley to produce one meat.

Aqua farms run fine but getting enough berries is quite difficult. Could depend on map, I have played only a few games.


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teppo
Joined: 2012-01-30, 09:42
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Posted at: 2019-05-19, 18:11

hessenfarmer wrote:

I dont' think so. Reindeer farms need at least 3 (!) barley to produce one meat.

I would vote to change nothing here as meat was only considered a by-product, that gives the frisian some extra buffer. But they should not aim at producing meat. Their infinite source is fish from the aqua farms.
Alternatively we could skip the meat in total.

I still think otherwise, and would be sorry to see the meat going away.

If we keep things as they are now, then would there be a way to alter the tribal encyclopedia so that it is more obvious to the reader that he wants fish, not meat?


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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2019-05-19, 18:36

teppo wrote:

If we keep things as they are now, then would there be a way to alter the tribal encyclopedia so that it is more obvious to the reader that he wants fish, not meat?

We could change the text description at the top of the entry without any problem.


Busy indexing nil values

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