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Topic: Frisian Balancing

hessenfarmer
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Joined: 2014-12-11, 23:16
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Posted at: 2019-12-09, 09:50

Nordfriese wrote:

  • make blacksmithy a small building with less input (would need a small graphics change from Nordfriese though)

-1. All buildings that process wares (except atl goldspinner, and with reservations fri claypit) are medium or big. This should stay as it is.

Ok if you changed your mind from this post https://www.widelands.org/forum/post/28003/ we could stay with it as it is. However this suggestion was made to make the frisians better fir into is good on harsh terrain.
You are right about the other tribes where only atlanteans had small buildings which process wares.
However as for current state frisians already have 2 of them clay pit and aqua farm. With the proposed changes there would be 2 more charcoal kiln and blacksmithy.
I already made a first try of the small blacksmithy but I have to test it, I would like you to test and evaluate this as well and reconsider. If you still keep your point I will respect this and it is easily undone.

+1 for the other suggestions.

So I'd implement the frisian charcoal kiln as spaceconsumer putting charcoal stacks into the landscape. I'll use a dummy for that but we would need graphics after I am finished.


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Nordfriese
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Joined: 2017-01-17, 18:07
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Posted at: 2019-12-09, 12:41

-1. All buildings that process wares (except atl goldspinner, and with reservations fri claypit) are medium or big. This should stay as it is.

Ok if you changed your mind from this post https://www.widelands.org/forum/post/28003/ we could stay with it as it is. However this suggestion was made to make the frisians better fir into is good on harsh terrain.

You are right about the other tribes where only atlanteans had small buildings which process wares.

However as for current state frisians already have 2 of them clay pit and aqua farm. With the proposed changes there would be 2 more charcoal kiln and blacksmithy.

While those do store wares, the actual work is carried out outside on the landscape, and the building is only the place where the worker lives and the wares are stored. IMHO only such buildings where the building is not the primary place of work should be small buildings. (atl goldspinner probably needs so little equipment that it fits into a small site – but a blacksmith´s forge is too big for that.)

So I'd implement the frisian charcoal kiln as spaceconsumer putting charcoal stacks into the landscape. I'll use a dummy for that but we would need graphics after I am finished.

I´ll make some soon


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hessenfarmer
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Joined: 2014-12-11, 23:16
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Posted at: 2019-12-09, 14:16

Nordfriese wrote:

-1. All buildings that process wares (except atl goldspinner, and with reservations fri claypit) are medium or big. This should stay as it is.

Ok if you changed your mind from this post https://www.widelands.org/forum/post/28003/ we could stay with it as it is. However this suggestion was made to make the frisians better fir into is good on harsh terrain.

You are right about the other tribes where only atlanteans had small buildings which process wares.

However as for current state frisians already have 2 of them clay pit and aqua farm. With the proposed changes there would be 2 more charcoal kiln and blacksmithy.

While those do store wares, the actual work is carried out outside on the landscape, and the building is only the place where the worker lives and the wares are stored. IMHO only such buildings where the building is not the primary place of work should be small buildings. (atl goldspinner probably needs so little equipment that it fits into a small site – but a blacksmith´s forge is too big for that.)

Valid agument! So I'll revert this change then.

So I'd implement the frisian charcoal kiln as spaceconsumer putting charcoal stacks into the landscape. I'll use a dummy for that but we would need graphics after I am finished.

I´ll make some soon

Thanks a lot, maybe I'll manage to create the placeholders using blackroot graphics tonight


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king_of_nowhere
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Joined: 2014-09-15, 18:35
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Posted at: 2019-12-09, 17:09

So I'd implement the frisian charcoal kiln as spaceconsumer putting charcoal stacks into the landscape.

i'm not sure this helps frisians. the space occupation becomes worse with it. especially since frisians already have lots of buildings that do the same. clay pit and berry farms, most notably.

If we have to buff frisians, i think it would be better if we could merge a few buildings. for example, currently there is a need to keep both the basic and advanced tavern, bakery and brewery (i think? haven't been following lately). if we let the advanced building do all, it would remove the need to occupy one more slot with the basic building. the two training sites could also be merged into a single one, saving one more building needed.


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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2019-12-09, 17:24

If we have to buff frisians, i think it would be better if we could merge a few buildings. for example, currently there is a need to keep both the basic and advanced tavern, bakery and brewery (i think? haven't been following lately). if we let the advanced building do all, it would remove the need to occupy one more slot with the basic building.

The advanced bakeries, breweries, drinking hall still produce normal bread/beer/rations already. Edit: Only armour smithies and sewing rooms are required both in normal and enhanced form.

the two training sites could also be merged into a single one, saving one more building needed.

Really? -1

Edited: 2019-12-09, 17:24

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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-12-09, 17:26

king_of_nowhere wrote:

So I'd implement the frisian charcoal kiln as spaceconsumer putting charcoal stacks into the landscape.

i'm not sure this helps frisians. the space occupation becomes worse with it. especially since frisians already have lots of buildings that do the same. clay pit and berry farms, most notably.

basically I believe it does on harsh terrain where medium building spot s are rare. and that was the intention of this change - not to need a medium sized spot. the stack immovables could be placed everwhere even on mountains

If we have to buff frisians, i think it would be better if we could merge a few buildings. for example, currently there is a need to keep both the basic and advanced tavern, bakery and brewery (i think? haven't been following lately). if we let the advanced building do all, it would remove the need to occupy one more slot with the basic building. the two training sites could also be merged into a single one, saving one more building needed.

-1 these changes would be against the character of the tribe I believe.


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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2019-12-09, 17:31

Regarding the charcoal kiln: perhaps we could have both? On maps with few medium slots, the stacks would be great; but I recently played on some of the 64×64 official maps and here the shortage of space in general was my biggest problem.


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-12-09, 17:39

Nordfriese wrote:

Regarding the charcoal kiln: perhaps we could have both? On maps with few medium slots, the stacks would be great; but I recently played on some of the 64×64 official maps and here the shortage of space in general was my biggest problem.

that was a suggestion of WorldSaviour already (see https://www.widelands.org/forum/post/28009/). Argument con was the AI handling. However I am somewhat curious about how the Ai would behave on this so I'd love to try this out.


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-12-11, 16:49

Now that I beleive I understood how terrain affinity works, I am pretty sure we need to do major improvements to the berry bushes terrain affinity values. I fed all bush values through my excel sheet and noted where results were greater than 75% and this left me with a lot of terrains where no berries grow well. e.g in wasteland only the beach and the ingenious rocks have a chance to grow any berry bush. The problem is intensified by the fact that the probability is checked 3 times in the growth process. so the real chance to survive for a single bush is (probability)^3, which renders any single probability below 75% useless. So I would like to have a list of the bushes and where they should grow to adopt the values to reach that goal.

Edit: I attached my excel sheet in a zip. So anybody interested can play around with the values.

Edited: 2019-12-11, 16:51

Attachment: grow_probability.zip (10.7 KB)

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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2019-12-11, 19:56

Oh. I just saw that the growth program has of course its own built-in remove=(chance) statement, so the additional remove=# statements in the bush programs are superfluous. Just remove them and the growth chances should go up drastically…


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