Currently Online

Latest Posts

Topic: Frisian Balancing

king_of_nowhere
Avatar
Joined: 2014-09-15, 18:35
Posts: 1264
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Posted at: 2019-05-16, 16:40

hessenfarmer wrote:

king_of_nowhere wrote:

Third, as a general concept, the frisians need a lot of different buildings - they have more buildings than any other tribe - and many of those also require more space - most notably the farms. I think as a point of balance frisian buildings should work faster, so that the overall economy performance would be balanced with the other tribes. In particular, I found it takes an ungodly amount of mines, furnaces, and armor smiths to feed a single training site. this should be cut down to something more reasonable.

The Frisian farm for example is already faster than the barbarian one so a Frisian farmer needs 66 seconds + 2 times walking time + 3,6 s to produce 2 barley (you need to take into account that they are always producing 2 barley in one cycle) a brabrian farm needs 48 s + 2 times walking time to produce 1 wheat. Furthermore the Frisian farms don't need their complete working area to be productive, so you can overlap their working areas very good. Normally in a long road I overlap them to just touch the adjacent building. most effective if you squeeze a beekeeper in between somewhere. Only thing about barley is it takes longer to grow so it takes time to reach the Harvest cycle which means the farmer has planted more fields than he can harvest. But you could use them with the second farm in a row.

I would like to continue the balancing discussion in the balancing thread though.

the frisian farm produces faster, but it takes a large amount of space because its crop grow slowly.

5 fields are enough for farms of other tribes, allowing you to place farms on a 4x4 grid with roads. even 4 fields get you close to 100%. I don't really know about frisians.

Anyway, farms are not a problem. frisians need a lesser percentage of their space to make farms compared to other tribes. it's everything else that really takes up space. As I said, they have more average-sized buildings than anyone else. that's especially bad if we want their shtick to be "work well with large expanses of poor land" (i.e. land where you can mostly only find small building sites), because they actually require a lot of flat land to set up a working economy.

Which actually gives me another idea: what if some of frisian's medium buildings became small instead? stuff like smokeries, or bakeries, or taverns, oor furnaces. It would help to fit those buildings in the leftover spaces.

unless their concept was changed. I'm sorry here, I stopped following activity for several months, so I'm not up to date with everything.


Top Quote
hessenfarmer
Avatar
Joined: 2014-12-11, 23:16
Posts: 613
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Location: Bavaria
Posted at: 2019-05-16, 17:53

king_of_nowhere wrote:

the frisian farm produces faster, but it takes a large amount of space because its crop grow slowly.

5 fields are enough for farms of other tribes, allowing you to place farms on a 4x4 grid with roads. even 4 fields get you close to 100%. I don't really know about frisians.

Anyway, farms are not a problem. frisians need a lesser percentage of their space to make farms compared to other tribes. it's everything else that really takes up space. As I said, they have more average-sized buildings than anyone else. that's especially bad if we want their shtick to be "work well with large expanses of poor land" (i.e. land where you can mostly only find small building sites), because they actually require a lot of flat land to set up a working economy.

Which actually gives me another idea: what if some of frisian's medium buildings became small instead? stuff like smokeries, or bakeries, or taverns, oor furnaces. It would help to fit those buildings in the leftover spaces.

unless their concept was changed. I'm sorry here, I stopped following activity for several months, so I'm not up to date with everything.

they have only a couple more medium buildings than the empire but in return they only have 3 big buildings (farm, reindeer farm and arena). So this already fits to the concept. But I would consider having the smokery and the charcoal kiln small buildings reduced to small. This would need to lower the stored ressources a bit though. But this would need probably some graphical work by Nordfriese. In this context I just had the idea of making the charcoal kiln a spaceconsumer who is putting charcoal stacks (immovable) into the landscape which then slowly are smoking down to coal and after finishing can be collected.
maybe the blacksmithy could be a small building as well, but with reduced storage then as well.

Edited: 2019-05-16, 17:53
Top Quote
teppo
Joined: 2012-01-30, 09:42
Posts: 337
Ranking
Tribe Member
Posted at: 2019-05-16, 18:09

Is it intentional that the reindeer farm does not produce meat, unless there is shortage of fur?


Top Quote
hessenfarmer
Avatar
Joined: 2014-12-11, 23:16
Posts: 613
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Location: Bavaria
Posted at: 2019-05-16, 18:17

I made some calculations now regarding the honeybread bakery and the mead brewery.
First we should equalize the demand in the training arena cause currently it requires 3 mead and 3 honey bread and 2 times it needs either honeybread or mead. Due to the order in the program it prefers both time honeybread. I think we should change the defense program to prefer mead.
with a demand of 4 mead and 4 honeybread we would need 4 mead breweries and 3,6 Honeybread bakeries to support 1 fully running arena. Not taking into account the probably even greater demand of the drinking halls.
If we reduce the sleeping time of each program to half the sleeping time of the basic building (10 sec for bakery and 15 sec for brewery instead of 20 and 30) this would sound reasonable for me as we have now 2 workers instead of one. this would save us 60 seconds (one third of the complete cycle) in the honey bread bakery and 55 seconds (roughly a quarter of the complete cycle) for the mead brewery. This would result in only 3 mead breweries needed and 2,4 Honeybread bakeries just for the arena. How does that sound?


Top Quote
hessenfarmer
Avatar
Joined: 2014-12-11, 23:16
Posts: 613
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Location: Bavaria
Posted at: 2019-05-16, 18:23

teppo wrote:

Is it intentional that the reindeer farm does not produce meat, unless there is shortage of fur?

I am not sure. Meat was designed to be only a by-product of the cycle. If an or statement works in this case we could use it in my eyes to ask for economies meat demand


Top Quote
teppo
Joined: 2012-01-30, 09:42
Posts: 337
Ranking
Tribe Member
Posted at: 2019-05-16, 18:28

hessenfarmer wrote:

Is it intentional that the reindeer farm does not produce meat, unless there is shortage of fur?

I am not sure. Meat was designed to be only a by-product of the cycle. If an or statement works in this case we could use it in my eyes to ask for economies meat demand

I have a vague memory that "or" would work here.

Anyway, current way is a bit stupid. If one reads the config files, then he knows to increase target fur to ridiculously high value, to get more meat.. Not my favorite. Better to have a "needs fur or needs meat" there.


Top Quote
king_of_nowhere
Avatar
Joined: 2014-09-15, 18:35
Posts: 1264
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Posted at: 2019-05-17, 02:00

hessenfarmer wrote:

they have only a couple more medium buildings than the empire but in return they only have 3 big buildings (farm, reindeer farm and arena). So this already fits to the concept.

And yet I can make empire economy work in a small map like desert tournament or fjiords. I'd have no idea how to do that with frisians.

perhaps I am letting my superior experience with other tribes cloud my judgment though.

hessenfarmer wrote:

I made some calculations now regarding the honeybread bakery and the mead brewery.
First we should equalize the demand in the training arena cause currently it requires 3 mead and 3 honey bread and 2 times it needs either honeybread or mead. Due to the order in the program it prefers both time honeybread. I think we should change the defense program to prefer mead.
with a demand of 4 mead and 4 honeybread we would need 4 mead breweries and 3,6 Honeybread bakeries to support 1 fully running arena. Not taking into account the probably even greater demand of the drinking halls.
If we reduce the sleeping time of each program to half the sleeping time of the basic building (10 sec for bakery and 15 sec for brewery instead of 20 and 30) this would sound reasonable for me as we have now 2 workers instead of one. this would save us 60 seconds (one third of the complete cycle) in the honey bread bakery and 55 seconds (roughly a quarter of the complete cycle) for the mead brewery. This would result in only 3 mead breweries needed and 2,4 Honeybread bakeries just for the arena. How does that sound?

Still sounds a bit too much compared with the other economies, but better to not overdo it.


Top Quote
Nordfriese
Avatar
Joined: 2017-01-17, 18:07
Posts: 386
Ranking
Tribe Member
Location: 0x55555d3a34c0
Posted at: 2019-05-17, 09:18

But I would consider having the smokery […] reduced to small.

-1. Generally: If the work is carried out inside the house, only tasks that require very little room can reasonably fit into a small building. Buildings like smokery, bakeries, breweries… need to be at least medium.

In this context I just had the idea of making the charcoal kiln a spaceconsumer who is putting charcoal stacks (immovable) into the landscape which then slowly are smoking down to coal and after finishing can be collected.

+1 face-smile.png
But it would still require much input storage, with a store of less than 6 logs it would be useless.

maybe the blacksmithy could be a small building as well, but with reduced storage then as well.

+1

Is it intentional that the reindeer farm does not produce meat, unless there is shortage of fur?

Yes, it´s intended purely as a by-product. I do not see why anyone would make fur demand astronomically high to make reindeer farms produce meat, aqua farms are way cheaper…
If this is really a problem though, we should just remove the meat output.


Top Quote
hessenfarmer
Avatar
Joined: 2014-12-11, 23:16
Posts: 613
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Location: Bavaria
Posted at: 2019-05-17, 09:51

Nordfriese wrote:

But I would consider having the smokery […] reduced to small.

-1. Generally: If the work is carried out inside the house, only tasks that require very little room can reasonably fit into a small building. Buildings like smokery, bakeries, breweries… need to be at least medium.

What if a smoker initially places one smoking hut (immovable small) to perform his task this would reduce a medium to 2 small spots used.

In this context I just had the idea of making the charcoal kiln a spaceconsumer who is putting charcoal stacks (immovable) into the landscape which then slowly are smoking down to coal and after finishing can be collected.

+1 face-smile.png
But it would still require much input storage, with a store of less than 6 logs it would be useless.

The only other small building in the game whis has a storage of inputs (except Frisian ones) is the atlanteasn gold mill with a storage capacity of 5. So we should aim at not having more than 7 wares in as small building. In fact a building needs to be supplied with all of its needed wares during his working cycle (this is the biggest problem for the other tribes charcoal kiln) to operate smoothly. The inputs above the needed wares for one cycle are just a buffer for the road system. So I believe a Frisian charcoal kiln with this new design could smoothly operate with 5 logs and 2 clay.

For this reason I think the aqua farm does store much to much wares as well this could be savely reduced to 2 fruit and 4 water which means a complete cycle as buffer.

maybe the blacksmithy could be a small building as well, but with reduced storage then as well.

+1

Is it intentional that the reindeer farm does not produce meat, unless there is shortage of fur?

Yes, it´s intended purely as a by-product. I do not see why anyone would make fur demand astronomically high to make reindeer farms produce meat, aqua farms are way cheaper…
If this is really a problem though, we should just remove the meat output.

in this case +1 for keeping it like it is as the extra meat makes for a good buffer in case there is a fish shortage.


Top Quote
Nordfriese
Avatar
Joined: 2017-01-17, 18:07
Posts: 386
Ranking
Tribe Member
Location: 0x55555d3a34c0
Posted at: 2019-05-17, 10:05

What if a smoker initially places one smoking hut (immovable small) to perform his task this would reduce a medium to 2 small spots used.

I think this would go too far away from the tribe´s character. We should keep this idea around for possible future tribes (nomads?) though...

So I believe a Frisian charcoal kiln with this new design could smoothly operate with 5 logs and 2 clay.

Ok

For this reason I think the aqua farm does store much to much wares as well this could be savely reduced to 2 fruit and 4 water which means a complete cycle as buffer.

On the other hand, one cycle as buffer is not that much for such an important building, perhaps 5 water + 3 fruit?


Top Quote