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Topic: new tribe: amazons

hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2020-02-28, 22:21

WorldSavior wrote:

Then it should be just the observation tower in my opinion. It will be a novelty in the game to have a tower which gains conquer radius if you enhance it.

made it so.


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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2020-04-09, 19:53

Just saying, there's an open PR with a bunch of worker and ships graphics. As soon as these graphics are approved I can start working on the productionsites.

Also I am starting to work on the immovables. The cocoa plants are currently referred to as "Cocoa Field", but

Di buum koon 15 m huuch wurd, üüb plantaajen woort hi oober üüb 4 m deelkört.

Source: Northern Frisian wikipedia

I would not call such a plant a field face-wink.png I suggest renaming them to Cocoa Tree and giving them the tree tag like for the rare trees (meaning other tribes' woodcutters can use them), and to call the Cocoa Farm a Cocoa Plantation.
And perhaps we could increase the cocoa farm's/plantation's radius to ~5, which would make it possible to build them close to jungle preservers and have cocoa trees standing in the forest?

Edited: 2020-04-09, 20:18

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WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
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Posted at: 2020-04-09, 21:40

Nordfriese wrote: call the Cocoa Farm a Cocoa Plantation.

Maybe, but "Plantation" sounds like you also have to build some cutters which harvest the cacao. Maybe the name could stay like it is? Or do you suggest to let cacao be harvested by cutters?

And perhaps we could increase the cocoa farm's/plantation's radius to ~5, which would make it possible to build them close to jungle preservers and have cocoa trees standing in the forest?

It's already possible, so increasing is not necessary, it would just slow down the farm...


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2020-04-21, 13:32

Nordfriese wrote:

Just saying, there's an open PR with a bunch of worker and ships graphics. As soon as these graphics are approved I can start working on the productionsites.

Also I am starting to work on the immovables. The cocoa plants are currently referred to as "Cocoa Field", but

Di buum koon 15 m huuch wurd, üüb plantaajen woort hi oober üüb 4 m deelkört.

Source: Northern Frisian wikipedia

I would not call such a plant a field face-wink.png I suggest renaming them to Cocoa Tree and giving them the tree tag like for the rare trees (meaning other tribes' woodcutters can use them), and to call the Cocoa Farm a Cocoa Plantation.
And perhaps we could increase the cocoa farm's/plantation's radius to ~5, which would make it possible to build them close to jungle preservers and have cocoa trees standing in the forest?

Sorry to reply that late. I like the idea of having cocoa trees, we might let them get ripe fruits let's say 4 times until they are exhausted and need to be replaced by another tree. which would make for a nice new feature regarding game mechanics (it just doesn't make sense to cut / remove the tree after the first cocoa beens have been harvested). Need to be careful about timing though.
I am in favor of calling this plantation as well as it is called so in real life I believe


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blind3rdeye
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Posted at: 2020-04-24, 10:06

I haven't been following this thread closely. (I'm relatively new to the forums, and so I've only skipped through the thread.) So sorry for butting in here... I'm just curious about the idea of not needing iron. From my experience, although I can't think of maps where the iron is nowhere near the start, there are plenty of times when I've completely run out of iron and my primary objective was to expand to, or conquer some iron fields. With the existing tribes, there is often an economic boom time when you get a new iron field. The coal mines all kick into action to process the coal, all the food production spins into action, and soldiers start getting trained. ... Then the iron runs out and everything slows down again. This effect only really happens on large maps; but I think it's a pretty interesting bit of economic dynamics.

So I'm wondering, if amazons don't use iron then I suppose that effect doesn't exist. The amazon economy would be a bit more steady - and I guess they wouldn't have that drive to push into little mountainous corners in the hope of finding more iron. Does that sound about right?

Also, I know that people with more knowledge and experience than me have put a fair bit of thought and effort into the design of this tribe, but I'm still a little bit concerned that the balance of the tribes might be such that in iron poor maps, amazons are by far the strongest, and in iron rich maps, amazons are by far the strongest. (I assume there will be some middle-ground where it's closer to being even.) Would anyone like to comment on that? For example, what bottle-necks do the amazons face? Is it mostly about land area?


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2020-04-24, 10:59

blind3rdeye wrote:

I haven't been following this thread closely. (I'm relatively new to the forums, and so I've only skipped through the thread.) So sorry for butting in here... I'm just curious about the idea of not needing iron. From my experience, although I can't think of maps where the iron is nowhere near the start, there are plenty of times when I've completely run out of iron and my primary objective was to expand to, or conquer some iron fields. With the existing tribes, there is often an economic boom time when you get a new iron field. The coal mines all kick into action to process the coal, all the food production spins into action, and soldiers start getting trained. ... Then the iron runs out and everything slows down again. This effect only really happens on large maps; but I think it's a pretty interesting bit of economic dynamics.

So I'm wondering, if amazons don't use iron then I suppose that effect doesn't exist. The amazon economy would be a bit more steady - and I guess they wouldn't have that drive to push into little mountainous corners in the hope of finding more iron. Does that sound about right?

Also, I know that people with more knowledge and experience than me have put a fair bit of thought and effort into the design of this tribe, but I'm still a little bit concerned that the balance of the tribes might be such that in iron poor maps, amazons are by far the strongest, and in iron rich maps, amazons are by far the strongest. (I assume there will be some middle-ground where it's closer to being even.) Would anyone like to comment on that? For example, what bottle-necks do the amazons face? Is it mostly about land area?

No it is not the only bottleneck. Their tools and weapons are made frrom stone. so they need a good stone supply as well, and therefore need to search for granite in the mountains. Furthermore their workers using their tools are working slower than irontool workers (e.g. lumberjacks, stonemasons, miners) this combined with their need of space due to their need of wood and hardwood makes them balancable I believe although there is most probably some finetuning needed.

However it is partly intended that some tribes are better on some maps and some are weaker.


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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2020-04-24, 14:26

blind3rdeye wrote:

I haven't been following this thread closely. (I'm relatively new to the forums, and so I've only skipped through the thread.) So sorry for butting in here... I'm just curious about the idea of not needing iron. From my experience, although I can't think of maps where the iron is nowhere near the start, there are plenty of times when I've completely run out of iron and my primary objective was to expand to, or conquer some iron fields.

this is not my experience. except for very ffew maps that are made specifically with this concept (some of the challenge maps, mostly) metals are virtually unlimited. especially in a multiplayer game - and those are the ones that need to be balanced, because nobody complains if playing with the AI is not perfectly balanced, but when two competitive humans are dishing it out, they need balance. basically, against humans the game won't last long enough to run out of resources. and against the AI, most players can defeat it easily, so if they decide to not do it and keep building up, it's their choice.

so, the fact that amazons do not depend on iron does not make a real problem because iron supply never runs out in practical games.

and, as hessenfarmer said, aside from that they still need stone. and they need gold for the higher promotions levels, and their gold economy is awfully inefficient (*). but yes, amazons are less dependent on occupying mountains but they are more dependent on getting fertile ground for planting forests. this can give them a slight advantage in some maps and a slight disadvantage in some others, but it's not going to make a huge difference. they have some advantages and some disadvantages

(*) they need coal to make rations for the gold miners, and they must burn trees to get coal. and they can't even get more than 50% of the gold available. and their mines have a pitiful radius, so it's likely you'll miss some spots anyway. EDIT: and i was forgetting the 5 buckets of water required to operate the gold mines too

Edited: 2020-04-25, 04:52

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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2020-04-24, 20:11

But the good thing is for me they are great fun, because they are so different and I really recommend to give them a try for everybody. If you want to do so you can use the newest builds to be able to enjoy the latest graphics from Nordfriese who is working hard and gets few feedback on the graphics.


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blind3rdeye
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Posted at: 2020-04-25, 01:22

I appreciate the comments. Thanks.

As for iron never running out in practical games... I suppose that means I'm playing wrong, because for me iron often runs out on large maps. (I don't mean that there is no more iron anywhere; I just mean there is no more iron in the land that I currently control.) In any case, I agree that the concept of tribe balance is most relevant to competitive multiplayer, in which players are likely to be more aggressive and the games are a bit shorter and more focused - so iron probably won't run out soon enough to be a balance problem.

By the way, for me, gold never runs out... It can be a challenge to get the first bit of gold to get started; but not much of it is needed compared to iron. But I can imagine that it might run out of my supply was halved!

I also agree that it's valuable for the tribes to be different enough that they have strengths and weakness compared to one another. And so it is natural that some tribes would have an advantage on some maps. When I said I as concerned in the previous post, I was just imagining that the advantage / disadvantage might to too big, such that the number of viable options is reduced rather than increased. I know the tribe has been in development for some time, and people obviously test and think about these things; but I was just interested in getting some thoughts on it. So thanks again for your thoughts on it!


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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2020-04-25, 04:57

blind3rdeye wrote:

I appreciate the comments. Thanks.

As for iron never running out in practical games... I suppose that means I'm playing wrong, because for me iron often runs out on large maps. (I don't mean that there is no more iron anywhere; I just mean there is no more iron in the land that I currently control.) In any case, I agree that the concept of tribe balance is most relevant to competitive multiplayer, in which players are likely to be more aggressive and the games are a bit shorter and more focused - so iron probably won't run out soon enough to be a balance problem.

in large maps it is normal to deplete some mines. still, barring special maps with limited resources (like dolomites or archipelago sea... curious, i seem to have a knack for making maps with limited resources), there should be enough left.


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