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Topic: new tribe: amazons

the-x
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Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23
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Posted at: 2019-12-04, 11:01

Testing Amazons:

  • Balsa was not produced
  • weapons are quite too easily build compared to other civilization
  • more difficulties needed, like to find iron / coal for all others
  • different trees work out nice

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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-12-04, 11:19

the-x wrote:

Testing Amazons:

  • Balsa was not produced

How was your setup? did you have the correct combination of rare_tree_plantation and rare_tree_woodcutters? Normally balsa is produced in the same amount as ironwood and rubber until economy has enough balsa. (in this case no more balsa treees are planted until balsa is needed again) So economy setting for balsa should be watched.

  • weapons are quite too easily build compared to other civilization

If you mean spears yes they are cheap however normally the stonecarveries lack ironwood pretty much. Even worse for boots and armor which need lots of rubber and balsa. Please try how fast you could built a hero with amazons.

  • more difficulties needed, like to find iron / coal for all others

For me the difficulty in early game is to produce enough rope and latter on it is to get enough rare woods. So finding and using space for huge rare trees woods should be the difficulty. mining gold is more expensive and smelting gold needs coal so we need lots of logs as well which means we need even more space for this, and we need to keep the woodcutters away from the rare trees as they will cut them down as well.

  • different trees work out nice

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the-x
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Posted at: 2019-12-04, 13:10

The Balsa problem is solved, but if you play Amazons the first times, you will always lack wood, except you know that that will really need much. By the way its a very nice concept, so that you need space for wood and still more space for wood. Maybe we could do that for cocoa or some more wares so that long term fun managing those things more (well there is already a bit).

Idea: Maybe we can do some more buildings like the frisean where you can improve in one or two steps. so like to make food better.

What I'm missing are ressources, but in general we can make gold / iron system a bit more complex, or some games where you really struggle to find gold, in the old games alwys the next orf second mountain contains gold and so everything is a bit boring and leading always to the same order of buildings you place.

General problem: There is often fast to much especially water on the ways. and: making streets sometimes isnt solving the problem because workers only transport wares the shortest way.


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the-x
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Posted at: 2019-12-04, 13:40

Also I see with Amazons its extremly diffucult to get the first warrior improved - needs alot of time and chocolate, fish And bread makes it very slowly. I'd suggest to skip at least the bread.

Then after a few minutes streets are fully blocked (logically 2er streets and build optimized) and you cant change them only if you cancel woodplanter and this takes a lot of time and harms economy.

Later you have fully blocked routes everywhere (especially of water) and so much weapons its hard to coordinate (here is need that higher upgrades cost much more, like 2x bread, 3x fish 4x chocolate and speer)

Mountains and randomly events which lead you build special things arent there, the same build order leads in every game to sucess -> need for example for the last two warrior upgrades diamonds which you can rarely find / or need to combine gold with sth rarely on the map


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the-x
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Posted at: 2019-12-04, 13:49

When you attack the enemy this interface must be made easy. I want to attack with one click. Maybe standard option is 12/12, so everyone near attacks and you can just say which (not healed) soldiers dont attack and we need a big (not extremly small) button to click where you can attack.

What i liked most about Amazons is the system between bread and chocolate, maybe we can even add a building (anything that needs space like woodcutter)


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-12-04, 13:49

the-x wrote:

The Balsa problem is solved, but if you play Amazons the first times, you will always lack Wood

Yes and I didn't manage a way to handle this properly myself. and not only Wood is missing it is easy to almost deadlock yourself with rope. So this is the big challenge to manage Wood and rope and rare Wood.

Cocoa and cassava Need space as well to work good however they could operate well within all the trees which gives a nice jungle like look of your economy Fitting well amazonian style. if we see that cassava and cocoa are to easy to handle we could make them grow a Little bit slower.

Idea: Maybe we can do some more buildings like the frisean where you can improve in one or two steps. so like to make food better.

Sure we could do this but we Need to not overdo this. One of the value to evaluate is how Long does it take to produce one hero. and how Long for a constant supply of the Training sites producing Heros one by the other. next will be the Output of fully trained soldiers per time in comparison to wares needed I have started some Excel tables for that while trying to balance frisian economy. so some values how Long you Need for a hero in relation to the time for other tribes would be fine. togehter with a Feeling for the possible improvements due to more experience with the tribe.

What I'm missing are ressources, but in general we can make gold / iron system a bit more complex, or some games where you really struggle to find gold, in the old games alwys the next orf second mountain contains gold and so everything is a bit boring and leading always to the same order of buildings you place.

I think we had already some Maps were Gold is far away. However Amazons will perform better on some Maps were there is less metal but more Stones and space and worse on other Maps. so choosing the best tribe for a map might be the first strategic choice in future games. For example you could try Amazons on dolomites map to get a Feeling for what I mean.

General problem: There is often fast to much especially water on the ways. and: making streets sometimes isnt solving the problem because workers only transport wares the shortest way.

I have not seen more congestions then on other tribes yet. water is Special as if placed properly one site produces far more then with other tribes so you simply Need less water gatherers. On the other side you lack water extremely if there isn't an open water nearby. I already thought About Terraforming for this reason to be playable on all Maps.


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-12-04, 13:53

the-x wrote:

When you attack the enemy this interface must be made easy. I want to attack with one click. Maybe standard option is 12/12, so everyone near attacks and you can just say which (not healed) soldiers dont attack and we need a big (not extremly small) button to click where you can attack.

This Change is not related to Amazons and it is like it has Always been it starts with one soldier. You needed to slide to rhe Right or STRG click the + in earlier builds as well.


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the-x
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Posted at: 2019-12-04, 13:56

hessenfarmer wrote:

the-x wrote:

The Balsa problem is solved, but if you play Amazons the first times, you will always lack Wood

Cocoa and cassava Need space as well to work good however they could operate well within all the trees which gives a nice jungle like look of your economy Fitting well amazonian style. if we see that cassava and cocoa are to easy to handle we could make them grow a Little bit slower.

This is one of the best things, to see the forest in combination. As this looks great we can do a lot of more things just like this "all the trees which gives a nice jungle like look of your economy Fitting well amazonian style"


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-12-04, 14:35

the-x wrote:

Also I see with Amazons its extremly diffucult to get the first warrior improved - needs alot of time and chocolate, fish And bread makes it very slowly. I'd suggest to skip at least the bread.

This is somewhat intentional to trade off for the no iron needed Advantage. Needs to be balanced though.

Then after a few minutes streets are fully blocked (logically 2er streets and build optimized) and you cant change them only if you cancel woodplanter and this takes a lot of time and harms economy.

Normally this should be manageable by designing the road System and adjust economy Settings. Which build did you Play? I introduced the economy Setting for Wood due to this reason and to not cut rare trees by a normal woodcutter.

Later you have fully blocked routes everywhere (especially of water) and so much weapons its hard to coordinate (here is need that higher upgrades cost much more, like 2x bread, 3x fish 4x chocolate and speer)

I don't get this. higher Costs would mean even higher transport demands.

Mountains and randomly events which lead you build special things arent there, the same build order leads in every game to sucess -> need for example for the last two warrior upgrades diamonds which you can rarely find / or need to combine gold with sth rarely on the map

I believe that topography is different on each map so one Needs to adapt builds. Again try them on dolomites to get a challenge.


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king_of_nowhere
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Joined: 2014-09-15, 18:35
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Posted at: 2019-12-04, 15:35

the-x wrote:

Testing Amazons:

  • Balsa was not produced

this was answered. personally, i had more problems getting enough ironwood.

  • weapons are quite too easily build compared to other civilization

other civilizations have cheap evade promotions. amazonians have much more expensive evade promotions. in turn they have cheaper weapon promotions, which have a similar value in term of combat effectiveness

  • more difficulties needed, like to find iron / coal for all others

the whole theme of the tribe is that they are mostly stone age, but have managed to effectively use wood and stone to replicate more advanced technology. sort of stone age steampunk.

and some things are easier for them than for others, while some things are harder and less efficient. it's intentional. together, they should all compensate.

I managed to make a hero soldier in about 70 to 80 minutes when i was playtesting. the time is a bit higher than with other tribes, but i wasn't trying too hard, so it probably can be brought down a bit. Overall, i used them for a few weeks and got the impression that balance was fairly close, if not yet ideal.

Edited: 2019-12-04, 15:36

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