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Topic: new tribe: amazons

hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-12-08, 19:50

I'll see what I can do. It may be off-topic, but it looks to me like the description of how to compile for Windows with Inno-Setup is outdated.

Inno-Setup was never meant as compiler for the game itself. It was always intended and used to compile the self extracting setup. exe file on windows, which deliver the widelands.exe and all needed dll and data files.


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-12-08, 20:02

WorldSavior wrote:

Compiling the branch on Linux doesn't work.

that is a pity. may I ask which version of linux and what steps you performed.

And what is going on with Appveyor? I don't see how to install that branch with that and even searching for how to do it doesn't give any results. Could anybody explain?

  1. go to https://ci.appveyor.com/project/widelands-dev/widelands/history
  2. search for the latest build which ended green and has written amazons-##### on the right side. clicking on that currently leads you here: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/widelands-dev/widelands/builds/29385504
  3. choose the build you need (x64 or x86, debug or release. clicking x64-release leads to: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/widelands-dev/widelands/builds/29385504/job/la61ap5sd8jx468i
  4. choose the tab on the right called "artifacts": https://ci.appveyor.com/project/widelands-dev/widelands/builds/29385504/job/la61ap5sd8jx468i/artifacts
  5. download the file provided there. (it is the self extracting installer compiled with Inno-setup). Just doubleclick the file to install then and follow instructions.

I've taken a look at some Lua-Files of the Amazons. I've seen that rare wood doesn't get produced if there is no need for it. That's good if you need one specific kind of rare wood. But what if you don't need any rare wood? Should the industry really idle? Wouldn't it be better if in that case the work would go on?

Hm, so far i never reached that state. In fact I always constantly lacked rare wood. If this ever gets the case the player can control this with economy settings though.

The code looks currently like this:

Skip unless eco needs balsa.

The code could look like this:

Skip unless (eco needs balsa OR (eco not needs balsa AND eco not needs rubber AND eco not needs ironwood ) )

looks interesting although I don't think we'd need it. However this would lead us to a very, very long tooltip text which would sound very weird in addition. But thanks for the input. If you still feel the need for such change after playing please bring it back on the table.


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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2019-12-09, 06:25

hessenfarmer wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

Compiling the branch on Linux doesn't work.

that is a pity. may I ask which version of linux and what steps you performed.

My linux version is somewhat private, I might inform you in a PM.

And what is going on with Appveyor? I don't see how to install that branch with that and even searching for how to do it doesn't give any results. Could anybody explain?

  1. go to https://ci.appveyor.com/project/widelands-dev/widelands/history
  2. search for the latest build which ended green and has written amazons-##### on the right side. clicking on that currently leads you here: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/widelands-dev/widelands/builds/29385504
  3. choose the build you need (x64 or x86, debug or release. clicking x64-release leads to: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/widelands-dev/widelands/builds/29385504/job/la61ap5sd8jx468i
  4. choose the tab on the right called "artifacts": https://ci.appveyor.com/project/widelands-dev/widelands/builds/29385504/job/la61ap5sd8jx468i/artifacts
  5. download the file provided there. (it is the self extracting installer compiled with Inno-setup). Just doubleclick the file to install then and follow instructions.

Thanks again, this worked. I've just not known step 3 exactly and step 4 not at all, I didn't expect an installer which is not explicitly marked as such under "artifacts".

I've taken a look at some Lua-Files of the Amazons. I've seen that rare wood doesn't get produced if there is no need for it. That's good if you need one specific kind of rare wood. But what if you don't need any rare wood? Should the industry really idle? Wouldn't it be better if in that case the work would go on?

Hm, so far i never reached that state. In fact I always constantly lacked rare wood. If this ever gets the case the player can control this with economy settings though.

Maybe because rare trees don't grow perfectly but depending on terrain? They seem to grow poorly on blackland and maybe even on tropical terrain / winter terrain. This shouldn't be the case imo. I've also seen that the gardening center makes terrain sometimes worse for the rare trees.

The code looks currently like this:

Skip unless eco needs balsa.

The code could look like this:

Skip unless (eco needs balsa OR (eco not needs balsa AND eco not needs rubber AND eco not needs ironwood ) )

looks interesting although I don't think we'd need it.

But it might be a nice-to-have

However this would lead us to a very, very long tooltip text which would sound very weird in addition.

Isn't there an easy way somewhere to show instead just "didn't plant balsa tree because economy doesn't need balsa", for example?

But thanks for the input. If you still feel the need for such change after playing please bring it back on the table.

You're welcome

Unfortunately I didn't have much time for testing yet, but I found some more bugs (which might be resulting in lack of developing time though):

  • Gardening Center continues to consume resources when it's ready with working, without any impact then of course

  • Liana cutter cannot harvest from rare trees (intended?) but will not show less productivity

  • treetop sentry not buildable, some big military building maybe as well.

Suggestion: What about the possibilty to enhance a gardening center? Maybe to a jungle master hut for a small prize, maybe even for free? Gardening centers might be the first building in Widelands which have fulfilled their task after a certain time.


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-12-09, 20:08

WorldSavior wrote:

I've taken a look at some Lua-Files of the Amazons. I've seen that rare wood doesn't get produced if there is no need for it. That's good if you need one specific kind of rare wood. But what if you don't need any rare wood? Should the industry really idle? Wouldn't it be better if in that case the work would go on?

Hm, so far i never reached that state. In fact I always constantly lacked rare wood. If this ever gets the case the player can control this with economy settings though.

Maybe because rare trees don't grow perfectly but depending on terrain? They seem to grow poorly on blackland and maybe even on tropical terrain / winter terrain. This shouldn't be the case imo. I've also seen that the gardening center makes terrain sometimes worse for the rare trees.

thanks we need to investigate this. however I had also problems with the big demand for rare wood on maps where the trees grew well.

The code could look like this:

Skip unless (eco needs balsa OR (eco not needs balsa AND eco not needs rubber AND eco not needs ironwood ) )

looks interesting although I don't think we'd need it.

But it might be a nice-to-have

However this would lead us to a very, very long tooltip text which would sound very weird in addition.

Isn't there an easy way somewhere to show instead just "didn't plant balsa tree because economy doesn't need balsa", for example?

no the message is directly compiled from the conditions in the working programs.

Unfortunately I didn't have much time for testing yet, but I found some more bugs (which might be resulting in lack of developing time though):

  • Gardening Center continues to consume resources when it's ready with working, without any impact then of course

confirmed. needs change. but isn't trivial.

  • Liana cutter cannot harvest from rare trees (intended?) but will not show less productivity.

Can't confirm this liana cutters are getting liana from rare trees as well . rare trees have the "tree" attribute as well making them harvestable by normal woodcutters which is a challenge in game play but makes them available for liana cutters and other tribes woodcutters. The latter is to prevent uncuttable rare tree walls.

  • treetop sentry not buildable, some big military building maybe as well.

confirmed. However this is weird. needs investigation.

Suggestion: What about the possibilty to enhance a gardening center? Maybe to a jungle master hut for a small prize, maybe even for free? Gardening centers might be the first building in Widelands which have fulfilled their task after a certain time.

-1 from my side in this case they should be dismanteled .


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the-x
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Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23
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Posted at: 2019-12-09, 20:38

What was excellent in Frisian Ideas was the Idea of water and Beeren used in the Lehmgrube.

Also den Bedarf an Beeren in der Taverne, und später auch noch ein weiterer Warenkreislauf mit den Fischen, gleichzeitig heben die sich aber genial auf. Wer auch immer sich das ausgedacht hat, kann sich mal auf die Schultern klopfen face-grin.png . Vielleicht schaffen wir es außer der großen Idee mit Holz noch ähnliche Ideen zu implementieren, natürlich auch das was eher einfach umsetzbar ist. Auch diese gr0ßen Bauernhöfe, von denen man wenig braucht, die aber doch ihren Platz brauchen find ich genial, dadurch kommt besonders bei längeren Spielen ein wenig ein Dorfcharakter raus. Nahe des Lagers oder HQ baue ich viele produzierende Gebäude und weit entfernt sind die Bauern, Beerenbauern - und wie diese Warenkreisläufe ineinander gehen: Oder dieses Mixsystem in der Taverne, 2x2 aber man braucht jeweils nur 1 von Brot und Beeren oder Fisch. Das ist genial. Man kann nach Bedarf das ausweiten, was einfacher geht. Ich bin total begeistert von der Idee und denke wir können das System, wer auch immer sich dazu berufen fühlt, weiterentwickeln und ähnliche ineinander geschachtelte Warenkreisläufe einbauen.

Wichtig dabei ist die Kombination, also nicht Brett -> Holz -> nd noch was, sondern wie in der Taverne: Brot+ Beeren bzw. 2 oder und 2

-

So the need for berries in the tavern, and later also another commodity cycle with the fish, but at the same time they are ingenious. Whoever has thought this up, can sometimes tap on the shoulders :-D. Maybe we manage to implement ideas similar to wood, but of course also what is rather easy to implement. Even these large farms, of which you need little, but still need their space I find awesome, this comes out a little a village character especially for longer games. Near the camp or HQ I build many producing buildings and far away are the farmers, berry farmers - and how these commodity cycles go together: Or this mix system in the tavern, 2x2 but you only need 1 each of bread and berries or fish. This is genius. You can expand as needed, which is easier. I am very excited about the idea and think we can further develop the system, whoever feels called to do so, and build in similar nested product cycles.

Important is the combination, so not Brett -> Wood -> nd something else, but as in the tavern: bread + berries or 2 or and 2


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WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
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Posted at: 2019-12-10, 20:09

the-x wrote:

-

So the need for berries in the tavern, and later also another commodity cycle with the fish, but at the same time they are ingenious. Whoever has thought this up, can sometimes tap on the shoulders :-D.

What's ingenious about it? On maps with enough fish: Berries are very close to be superflouus. Investing tools in berry production is a mistake then. And have you ever tried to play a berry based build on a blackland map? face-tongue.png

hessenfarmer wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

I've taken a look at some Lua-Files of the Amazons. I've seen that rare wood doesn't get produced if there is no need for it. That's good if you need one specific kind of rare wood. But what if you don't need any rare wood? Should the industry really idle? Wouldn't it be better if in that case the work would go on?

Hm, so far i never reached that state. In fact I always constantly lacked rare wood. If this ever gets the case the player can control this with economy settings though.

Maybe because rare trees don't grow perfectly but depending on terrain? They seem to grow poorly on blackland and maybe even on tropical terrain / winter terrain. This shouldn't be the case imo. I've also seen that the gardening center makes terrain sometimes worse for the rare trees.

thanks we need to investigate this.

You're welcome

however I had also problems with the big demand for rare wood on maps where the trees grew well.

Maybe on Jungle maps, because there the tree-friendly terrain is bad for rare trees.

I've looked into the discussion and saw that king_of_nowhere said something like "on ground where trees grow well, rare trees should grow equally well". I agree and think that the growth of rare trees could be even better.

The code could look like this:

Skip unless (eco needs balsa OR (eco not needs balsa AND eco not needs rubber AND eco not needs ironwood ) )

looks interesting although I don't think we'd need it.

But it might be a nice-to-have

However this would lead us to a very, very long tooltip text which would sound very weird in addition.

Isn't there an easy way somewhere to show instead just "didn't plant balsa tree because economy doesn't need balsa", for example?

no the message is directly compiled from the conditions in the working programs.

That's a pity. And I guess that it's not worth the effort to change this...

Unfortunately I didn't have much time for testing yet, but I found some more bugs (which might be resulting in lack of developing time though):

  • Gardening Center continues to consume resources when it's ready with working, without any impact then of course

confirmed. needs change. but isn't trivial.

I can imagine. Maybe the following might be a possible solution? - If the building consumed in the last work cycle but didn't work, it will never consume and work again . The last wasted resources are then for the work-is-done-let's-eat-some-fried-fish-celebration face-tongue.png

  • Liana cutter cannot harvest from rare trees (intended?) but will not show less productivity.

Can't confirm this liana cutters are getting liana from rare trees as well . rare trees have the "tree" attribute as well making them harvestable by normal woodcutters which is a challenge in game play but makes them available for liana cutters and other tribes woodcutters. The latter is to prevent uncuttable rare tree walls.

Weird....

  • treetop sentry not buildable, some big military building maybe as well.

confirmed. However this is weird. needs investigation.

To be precise: Fortresses are not enhancable. Or are they? Not sure anymore.

I've spotted some more bugs in a long test match.

  • woodcutters can cut rare trees, they shouldn't .
  • rarecutters cannot cut trees, but they should if no rare tree there or if rare tree not needed. .
  • rare trees can cover statistic percentage!

  • the contra-productive rope eco setting still exists.

  • setting rare wood eco settings to efficiency profile lets the game crash

  • trying to change efficiency profile lets the game crash

  • replays crash the game immediately

And in the test match I reached the point where Eco didn't need any more rare trees, so it was a pity for some wasted resources face-wink.png


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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2019-12-10, 20:17

Gardening center: The worker should get an additional dummy program that only performs the findspace program, which is called by the building before consumption. That way the program will fail if there are no suited places before consuming.

setting rare wood eco settings to efficiency profile lets the game crash

The predefined profiles are just placeholders so far, they still need to be (re)written


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hessenfarmer
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Joined: 2014-12-11, 23:16
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Posted at: 2019-12-10, 21:36

WorldSavior wrote:

Maybe because rare trees don't grow perfectly but depending on terrain? They seem to grow poorly on blackland and maybe even on tropical terrain / winter terrain. This shouldn't be the case imo. I've also seen that the gardening center makes terrain sometimes worse for the rare trees.

thanks we need to investigate this.

You're welcome

however I had also problems with the big demand for rare wood on maps where the trees grew well.

Maybe on Jungle maps, because there the tree-friendly terrain is bad for rare trees.

I've looked into the discussion and saw that king_of_nowhere said something like "on ground where trees grow well, rare trees should grow equally well". I agree and think that the growth of rare trees could be even better.

I fully agree. I tried to find good average terrain affinity values with low pickiness. However I seem to have misunderstood or not fully understood something. So either we find better values or we just make them non terrain affine. I need time for this or good suggestions. Some explanation of the mechanism would be good as well.

Isn't there an easy way somewhere to show instead just "didn't plant balsa tree because economy doesn't need balsa", for example?

no the message is directly compiled from the conditions in the working programs.

That's a pity. And I guess that it's not worth the effort to change this...

no not in the sight of what needs to be done else.

  • Liana cutter cannot harvest from rare trees (intended?) but will not show less productivity.

Can't confirm this liana cutters are getting liana from rare trees as well . rare trees have the "tree" attribute as well making them harvestable by normal woodcutters which is a challenge in game play but makes them available for liana cutters and other tribes woodcutters. The latter is to prevent uncuttable rare tree walls.

Weird....

  • treetop sentry not buildable, some big military building maybe as well.

confirmed. However this is weird. needs investigation.

To be precise: Fortresses are not enhancable. Or are they? Not sure anymore.

Can't confirm they are enhanceable to fortification in my build.

I've spotted some more bugs in a long test match.

  • woodcutters can cut rare trees, they shouldn't .

the problem is we need the other tribes woodcutters to be able to cut them. So the only solution I found is giving them 2 attributes instead of one "tree" and the fiiting rare attribute like "tree_balsa"
woodcutters, liana cutters, wilderness keepers and treetop sentries look for the "tree" attribute, while rare tree cutters look for the respective attribute of the tree needed.

  • rarecutters cannot cut trees, but they should if no rare tree there or if rare tree not needed. .

the first is not easy to implement but doable the latter could be done easily, if needed, but I am not sure what was KoN's opinion on that as he is the soiritus rector of this tribe.

  • rare trees can cover statistic percentage!

all tribes immovable can do this I believe, not sure whether world immovables (normal trees) are not doing the same. I beleive we had an branch fixing that but kicked it out of b20 as it was too buggy. Hopefully our Chieftain will find some time to look into that again. However I haven't seen her lately.

  • the contra-productive rope eco setting still exists.

don't understand this. Please explain and / or point us to a specific point in discussion which I might have forgotten.

  • setting rare wood eco settings to efficiency profile lets the game crash

  • trying to change efficiency profile lets the game crash

  • replays crash the game immediately

is there any message provided? could you provide a stdout. text log from this?

And in the test match I reached the point where Eco didn't need any more rare trees, so it was a pity for some wasted resources face-wink.png

good to hear this is possible. However in this case I would recommend setting new economy demand values. should be easy with +10 button.

Thanks for the feedback. However I'll prefer to get the balancing changes done first. and then come back to this. Until then we should collect all issues, so I get a proper to do list face-wink.png


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king_of_nowhere
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Joined: 2014-09-15, 18:35
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Posted at: 2019-12-10, 22:28

hessenfarmer wrote:

I've looked into the discussion and saw that king_of_nowhere said something like "on ground where trees grow well, rare trees should grow equally well". I agree and think that the growth of rare trees could be even better.

I fully agree. I tried to find good average terrain affinity values with low pickiness. However I seem to have misunderstood or not fully understood something. So either we find better values or we just make them non terrain affine. I need time for this or good suggestions. Some explanation of the mechanism would be good as well.

not sure of the exact mechanism myself, but it goes something like that:

  • there are humidity, fertility and temperature values. make them x, y and z coordinates. humidity and fertility go from 0 to 1, temperature goes from around 20 to around 200 (it was originally supposed to be a realistic temperature in Kelvin, but that idea was abandoned and the values were adjusted as needed). trees have a preferred value for each. it determines a point in that (x, y, z) space where the trees grows best. its chance of death is minimal.

now, how well the tree will grow is a 4-dimensional gaussian curve centered on that point. how large or narrow is the gaussian depends on the pickiness; lower pickiness means the gaussian is larger. But i don't know the exact equation.

so, making away with complex math, to grow well the tree needs to have both preferred humidity and fertility and temperature close to its ideal value. one single value that is wildly different is enough to spoil it.

the problem with different terrains is that they have wildly different values of those parameters, so that trees of one biome will only grow well in its biome.

  • summer has mid fertility and humidity, mid temperature

  • desert (the fertile terrains of that biome) has mid humidity and fertility, high temperature.

  • wasteland has high fertility, low humidity, mid temperature

  • winter has mid-low fertility, high humidity, low temperature.

but things may be salvageable, because i took one precaution to ensure that barren terrain would remain barren no matter what: I made a point to set no tree with a preferred fertility lower than 0.4, and pickiness lower than 0.6. It means that at fertility 0.2 no tree can have a chance to grow better than 50%, and at fertility lower than 0.1 they become negligible. on the other hand, preferred humidity go from 0.8 to 0.15, and the humidities of fertile terrains wing even more wildly.

so my idea is to make the precious trees with the following values: preferred humidity 0.5, fertility 1, temperature 110, pickiness 0.3 (needs to be adjusted experimentally).

that way, with preferred humidity 0.5 and such a low pickiness it will grow well in any humidity conditions. same for temperature. on the other hand, with preferred fertility 1, it should grow well on all terrains with a fertility at least equal to 0.4, which are the ones where trees grow.

we only need to find the right pickiness to have the growth chance drop at around 0.4 fertility

P.S. all of the above is on the assumption that nobody tampered with the trees since 2015

Edited: 2019-12-11, 17:53

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JanO
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Posted at: 2019-12-11, 09:16

king_of_nowhere wrote:

temperature 110

Really?


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