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Topic: non-atlanteans need a buff

king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2019-07-18, 20:06

the-x wrote:

NonServiam wrote:

The reason why I thought buffing farm productivity might be good, is to reduce the amount of space they need.

Farms are territorial Ressource, that means if you have much space you can build farms --> The more space you have the more food you can produce. To make bigger maps better playable we should make farms more like frisean farms, like they need more space to produce well.

actually frisian farms need the same amount of space as everyone else. it's just that you build less of them. what's important is not how many farms you build and how much space a single farm takes, but how much of your land you devote to farming. frisian farms need more space but they also produce more, the two compensate.

The problem is NonServiam, if we do like you write you have a lot of building space which is pointless or useless for the game while you have your roads overloaded (and to much wares).

Blasphemy! Building space is never pointless. it will take time to fill it, but managing your building space is key in long games. as for roads overloaded and too many wares, if that's what happens then you are doing something deeply wrong.

Anyway, this is besides the point. given equal space, atlanteans can get more out of it. any challenge map with small land is much easier when played with atlanteans because they can work their economy with less space. it doesn't show as much in pvp as small map means fast contact and so rushing capacity matters more.


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-07-18, 21:04

I don't understand the harsh discussion that came to this topic as we already had nearly an agreement about most things.
For my impression empire farms are not underpowered as they are as fast as atlanteans if I remember correctly. Piggeries need to be faster as they would be crucial in a game with les fish.
Wine is also a little bit slow and should be sped up. (although we have 2 options to do so)
Barbariams could use a buff as well regarding their evade values. And their farmers shoudl be of the same speed as empire and atlanteans.
training costs can be adapted although I am not convinced on that.
I believe we need a branch to test the things but I am very busy with other things first. So if someone could implement the agreed changes and upload a branch this theoretical discussion could be backed up by some empiric experience.


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the-x
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Posted at: 2019-07-18, 21:04

Yes, we should improve that, so that the farms of the other fractions are more like them. To the point with the overuses ways in long games- this is a general problem and not depending from player to player. If you once started fe a harbor, nor of us can manage it without these problems... which means, farms that use more space are the best solution - or i guarantee there are many games that dont fill up -> and more important you dont build cause of the enemy might conquer sooner as its gets equal output. all the mechanics are completely clear like frisian farms double / which gives the same productivity.


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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2019-07-19, 11:25

the-x wrote:

To the point with the overuses ways in long games- this is a general problem and not depending from player to player.

I disagree

If you once started fe a harbor, nor of us can manage it without these problems...

Ports are rarely important spots for big ware transport, and it takes a lot of ware flow until they are overused...

hessenfarmer wrote:

For my impression empire farms are not underpowered as they are as fast as atlanteans if I remember correctly.

Correct. I think that blackroot farms are even slightly slower. At the other hand, imperial farms are maybe too expensive.

training costs can be adapted although I am not convinced on that.

Maybe Frisians need lower trainings costs. For example their Arena uses always smoked meat/fish+honey bread+mead, which is very expensive.

king_of_nowhere wrote:

Anyway, this is besides the point. given equal space, atlanteans can get more out of it. any challenge map with small land is much easier when played with atlanteans because they can work their economy with less space.

There might be an example against that thesis: Archipelago sea. There the empire has an advantage because it can easier conquer land because of the bigger selection of military buildings.

the-x wrote:

To make bigger maps better playable we should make farms more like frisean farms, like they need more space to produce well.

I'm against that

NonServiam wrote:

The reason why I thought buffing farm productivity might be good, is to reduce the amount of space they need.

Yes, the empire needs a lot of space for farms and other stuff if fish&game run out

king_of_nowhere wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

king_of_nowhere wrote:

So far, one of the latest discovered advantages of atlanteans is that they can get a full trained soldier (minus defence, but those promotions are weak enough that you can skip them)

Why can one skip them?

for kicking the early game low-promotion soldiers you need attack and evade. everything else is gravy.

At the other hand, some defence or health promotions are better than some attack promotions.

king_of_nowhere wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

Who else thinks that it would be better to halve the gold costs of every barbarian and imperial trainingssite? For example the imperial ones are too expensive anyway.

can be done too. though i don't think that will have a huge impact on balance, as those buildings are generally only built once.

Depends on the map. On maps where you find gold late it can be a big disadvantage to be able to build only 1 trainingssite whithout big efforts.

hessenfarmer wrote:

Ok these are the Level 10 numbers with a barbarian evade increase of 16 (+1 to the current value)

vs Barbarians Empire Atlanteans Frisians
Barbarians 54,29 55,79 54,06 57,01
Empire 51,6 53,55 49,01 53,68
Atlanteans 53,52 56,99 53,62 51,91
Frisians 54,34 54,81 55,67 59,28

and these are the numbers for increase of 17.

Barbarians Empire Atlanteans Frisians
Barbarians 53,8 58,1 56,64 59,04
Empire 48,41 53,31 49,35 54,17
Atlanteans 48,93 57,9 53,84 52,66
Frisians 49,95 54,82 56,68 58,99

so +1 is good +2 isn't.

I agree. Thanks for showing this


“It's a threat to our planet to believe that someone else will save it.” - Robert Swan

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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-07-19, 12:50

I agree with most of the things above except the training cost side, where I would like to see some results first. So if anybody could do the changes discussed and upload a branch or at least send me the lua files I really would appreciate that. I can't put effort in this as I already have some enough work to do.
Only thing is we can't make the tribes perform equally on every map. I just learned for example my choice of empire in crossriver was not very clever as marble is rare there. On other maps other tribes might be disadvantaged due to their nature. So we should aim on comparable (as equal would be hard to achieve or even to measure) on maps where every tribe will find what they need easily. Otherwise we would end with multiple times the same tribe which would be boring wouldn't it.


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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2019-07-19, 23:21

the-x wrote:

Yes, we should improve that, so that the farms of the other fractions are more like them. To the point with the overuses ways in long games- this is a general problem and not depending from player to player.

If you manage your roads well, if you build your roads carefully trying to avoid 3-steps roads and chokepoints and having direct roads between each part of your economy, and oof course if you also have the horse farm, then you rarely get transportation problems. you can look at the nile economy challenge, if there are screenshots from mine and worldsavior games, they have example of good roads.

WorldSavior wrote:

king_of_nowhere wrote:

Anyway, this is besides the point. given equal space, atlanteans can get more out of it. any challenge map with small land is much easier when played with atlanteans because they can work their economy with less space.

There might be an example against that thesis: Archipelago sea. There the empire has an advantage because it can easier conquer land because of the bigger selection of military buildings.

there is a distinction there. empire expands faster, because it needs little wood, which is scarce on that map. however, once expansion was reached, atlanteans still can outperform empire.

in our game i gained the upper hand early exactly because of empire early expansion (and some luck in direct hero fights), but then you finished setting up your economy and then I struggled to keep up, because even if I had more space I wasn't producing much more than you. I still won because by then I had a large advantage, but my impression was that if both empire and atlanteans conquer all the land they have, and then they build it all, and they spend a couple hours building soldiers, atlanteans are going to come out on top.

and do notice that archipelago sea is very empire-friendly because low wood for expensive guardhouses and smokeries is really bad for atlanteans, while empire can play with little wood. and also fish are virtually infinite, so empire never needs piggeries.

Edited: 2019-07-19, 23:26

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kaputtnik
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Posted at: 2019-07-20, 15:40

I think we mostly see the one wins who get the strongest soldier(s) in the shortest time. This may change in build 21 if we can have the peaceful mode optionally enabled for some winconditions.

Anyway i just had this idea for a tournament, which is similar too the Tournament last year:

  • Every player has to play all 4 tribes in 4 Games (one different tribe in each game)
  • All 4 games have to be played on one map. The map should have equal starting conditions for each tribe.
  • Main goal is to create one hero in the shortest time in each game.

Maybe this can also help to find some disadvantages of a tribe?


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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2019-07-20, 23:56

kaputtnik wrote:

I think we mostly see the one wins who get the strongest soldier(s) in the shortest time.

there is an interesting question there, though. does victory go to the one who creates the first hero because it's such an overpowered tactic? or is it maybe that the one who creates the first hero could do so because he could establish a stronger economy, faster, and is overall the better player?

probably a bit of both.


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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2019-07-22, 23:32

kaputtnik wrote:

I think we mostly see the one wins who get the strongest soldier(s) in the shortest time. This may change in build 21 if we can have the peaceful mode optionally enabled for some winconditions.

Anyway i just had this idea for a tournament, which is similar too the Tournament last year:

  • Every player has to play all 4 tribes in 4 Games (one different tribe in each game)
  • All 4 games have to be played on one map. The map should have equal starting conditions for each tribe.
  • Main goal is to create one hero in the shortest time in each game.

Maybe this can also help to find some disadvantages of a tribe?

Maybe it can, but at the other hand it's not very exact. In a normal match one has to build for example military buildings and additional economy, so it works different there. So a tournament which is more similar to the current combat tournament can deliver better informations.

king_of_nowhere wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

king_of_nowhere wrote:

Anyway, this is besides the point. given equal space, atlanteans can get more out of it. any challenge map with small land is much easier when played with atlanteans because they can work their economy with less space.

There might be an example against that thesis: Archipelago sea. There the empire has an advantage because it can easier conquer land because of the bigger selection of military buildings.

there is a distinction there. empire expands faster, because it needs little wood, which is scarce on that map. however, once expansion was reached, atlanteans still can outperform empire.

Yes they can, I just wanted to make a little point instead of starting another discussion

hessenfarmer wrote:

I agree with most of the things above except the training cost side, where I would like to see some results first. So if anybody could do the changes discussed and upload a branch or at least send me the lua files I really would appreciate that. I can't put effort in this as I already have some enough work to do.

After the tournament I might check out current trunk, maybe I could do something then, but I'm not sure yet.


“It's a threat to our planet to believe that someone else will save it.” - Robert Swan

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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2019-08-22, 17:46

bump: is anyone looking into that?

the first 5 players at the tournament all used atlanteans as their main tribe, it's hard to call that a coincidence. and it detracts from the game to have one single tribe outperform the others.


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