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Topic: non-atlanteans need a buff

king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2019-07-06, 16:24

we've been trying to deny it, but atlanteans are the strongest tribe by a fair margin. not only they have the strongest full promoted soldiers, they also have the strongest level 0 soldiers, the strongest soldiers out of the basic defensive building, the shrtest time to make a fully trained (or close enough) soldier, and most important, they need less space and buildings to set up a full economy. I realized this in full when I played empire in the tournament and realized just how many farms I needed to support arena+training camp, but all strongest players agree that atlanteans are just stronger.

I've red somewhere that buffing what is weak is better than nerfing what is strong, and so I propose to buff barbarians and empire a bit. Let's not even start about frisians because I think they are hopeless as they are constructed and they would need a total rework and the removal of a good third of their buildings and wares.

So, let's start with empire. they have the weaker full promoted soldiers, but those are also cheap in metal. they need marble to make buildings, but that's compensated a bit by needing less wood. they have fairly strong evade soldiers. their major problems are 2: first, they need way too much wheat for anything. Second, once they run out of fish the piggeries are really inefficient.

So my buff proposal is:

  • remove a total of 3 bread from the training cost to get a full trained empire soldier. One of those has to be removed from evade.
  • speed up piggeries. Right now they make one meat per minute. Let's bring it to one meat pper 40 seconds.
  • maybe speed up slightly other slow empire buildings. I was thinking brewery, wineyard, winery, bakery, as they are the major bottlenecks of their economy.

As for barbarians: they have very cheap basic soldiers, and they can make them faster than anyone else, so it's all right that they stay weak. those soldiers are also strong enough when fully trained, but also the most expensive to train. and in the middle of those two extremes, barbarian soldiers are really weak. Overall, I think their major problem is with grain economy, again. their farms are slower, their bread more expensive, and a lot of it is needed for training.

So I think - speed up barbarian farms slightly. either bring them up on par with others (one ware every 80 seconds) or at least bring them to 90 seconds. - remove one bread from barbarian evade training. - maybe increase evade by 1% per level too.


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kaputtnik
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Posted at: 2019-07-06, 19:08

Piggeries are needed only in very long run games, when fish runs out or the hunters runs out of game. So speeding them up will only be an advantage on long running games. Normally one will have revealed many tiles of a map and found some marble in the mountains, which helps to build up some piggeries, imho.

I agree that speeding up vineyards will help a lot. On most maps marble is rare and if one needs only one or two vineyards will help to save some marble. Speeding up the framers may help to the other buildings you suggested (Bakery/Brewery).

As for the training site i am unsure. It depends how Give some bonus to the defender will be solved, imho.


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-07-06, 22:50

I think this impression is a bit biased by the tournament map choice. I agree they are fastest to create one hero soldier. But afterwards they need a good management to make a steady supply of them too. I think they need a lot of farms too as they need a good amount of blackroot farms as well. And they need a lot of wood as well. So I think it depends on the map and the length of the game whether they are the strongest. Each tribe has its advantages and weaknesses (and this includes frisians) but not all of them could develop in a tournament game which is up to now rather short. So I am against any short solution without proper analysis.
We had plenty of balancing discussions with the frisians which already led to some improvements at the other tribes as well.


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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2019-07-06, 23:41

hessenfarmer wrote:

I think this impression is a bit biased by the tournament map choice. I agree they are fastest to create one hero soldier. But afterwards they need a good management to make a steady supply of them too. I think they need a lot of farms too as they need a good amount of blackroot farms as well.

Not really. they need less large buildings than anyone else. in any map with limited build space, atlanteans can squeeze the most out of it. atlanteans need very few farms, actually, though that's intended to compensate for the fact that they need more wood for smokeries. but atlanteans really can get more prooduction from the same space. that's confirmed by every experience me and worldsavior ever had with challenge maps or tournament maps. empire had advantages when you are low on wood, and barbarians when you want to expand fast, but that's it. I'm not making that claim out of the blue, I've considered it for years.


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-07-07, 00:16

king_of_nowhere wrote:

hessenfarmer wrote:

I think this impression is a bit biased by the tournament map choice. I agree they are fastest to create one hero soldier. But afterwards they need a good management to make a steady supply of them too. I think they need a lot of farms too as they need a good amount of blackroot farms as well.

Not really. they need less large buildings than anyone else. in any map with limited build space, atlanteans can squeeze the most out of it. atlanteans need very few farms, actually, though that's intended to compensate for the fact that they need more wood for smokeries. but atlanteans really can get more prooduction from the same space. that's confirmed by every experience me and worldsavior ever had with challenge maps or tournament maps. empire had advantages when you are low on wood, and barbarians when you want to expand fast, but that's it. I'm not making that claim out of the blue, I've considered it for years.

I totally believe you are not making this suggestion for fun. I although appreciate your experience. But I believe that Atlanteans are strong but hard to play, i.e. you can make a lot of mistakes slowing you down.
Anyhow it would be easier to decrease atlantean strength a bit rather then buffing the other tribes and it is no option to exclude frisians as we have made good progress balancing them and I don't want to discourage any other tribe designer. So if Atlanteans are really to strong I would vote for decreasing their strength as it is less work.


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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2019-07-07, 15:06

hessenfarmer wrote:

But I believe that Atlanteans are strong but hard to play, i.e. you can make a lot of mistakes slowing you down.

I think that barbarians and frisians are harder to play. Empire is also complicated if you run out of fish/animals and/or surface minerals.

Atlanteans are rather straightforward... What would be your counterexamples?

Anyhow it would be easier to decrease atlantean strength a bit rather then buffing the other tribes and it is no option to exclude frisians as we have made good progress balancing them and I don't want to discourage any other tribe designer. So if Atlanteans are really to strong I would vote for decreasing their strength as it is less work.

At the other hand it will be more fun if one improves non-atlanteans instead of nerfing atlanteans.

king_of_nowhere wrote:

empire had advantages when you are low on wood, and barbarians when you want to expand fast, but that's it.

These are not the only advantages. For example they need less tools than atlanteans, and atlantean tools are maybe the most expensive (given that the map contains enough fish and minerals)....

hessenfarmer wrote:

I think this impression is a bit biased by the tournament map choice. I agree they are fastest to create one hero soldier. But afterwards they need a good management to make a steady supply of them too. I think they need a lot of farms too as they need a good amount of blackroot farms as well. And they need a lot of wood as well. So I think it depends on the map and the length of the game whether they are the strongest. Each tribe has its advantages and weaknesses (and this includes frisians) but not all of them could develop in a tournament game which is up to now rather short. So I am against any short solution without proper analysis.
We had plenty of balancing discussions with the frisians which already led to some improvements at the other tribes as well.

I agree on most points

kaputtnik wrote:

Piggeries are needed only in very long run games, when fish runs out or the hunters runs out of game. So speeding them up will only be an advantage on long running games.

But there it is really needed, empire is clearly weaker than atlanteans if the empire doesn't find any more fish/game...

Normally one will have revealed many tiles of a map and found some marble in the mountains, which helps to build up some piggeries, imho.

Yes, but they still consume a lot of space...

king_of_nowhere wrote:

we've been trying to deny it, but atlanteans are the strongest tribe by a fair margin.

Maybe you overestimate them sligthly.

not only they have the strongest full promoted soldiers, they also have the strongest level 0 soldiers,

...but they start with ten soldiers less...

the strongest soldiers out of the basic defensive building,

... but shields are really bad and if you don't use them, the labyrinth runs slowly...

and most important, they need less space and buildings to set up a full economy.

I would be not so sure about it. But this is true if barbarians run out of surface minerals and if empire/frisians run out of fish/game...

I realized this in full when I played empire in the tournament and realized just how many farms I needed to support arena+training camp, but all strongest players agree that atlanteans are just stronger.

I think that you have build far too many farms, you could have also replaced all piggeries by fishers...

I've red somewhere that buffing what is weak is better than nerfing what is strong, and so I propose to buff barbarians and empire a bit.

+1

Let's not even start about frisians because I think they are hopeless as they are constructed and they would need a total rework and the removal of a good third of their buildings and wares.

I disagree, Frisians are not that weak.

So, let's start with empire. they have the weaker full promoted soldiers, but those are also cheap in metal. they need marble to make buildings, but that's compensated a bit by needing less wood. they have fairly strong evade soldiers. their major problems are 2: first, they need way too much wheat for anything. Second, once they run out of fish the piggeries are really inefficient.

So my buff proposal is:

  • remove a total of 3 bread from the training cost to get a full trained empire soldier.

This sounds good because it's rather harsh that the empire often needs two bread per step

One of those has to be removed from evade.

Not sure if it should be removed from evade 1, because this could make the arena too strong. And even if not, the colosseum would become even stronger. Unsure...

  • speed up piggeries. Right now they make one meat per minute. Let's bring it to one meat pper 40 seconds.

Yes, one could speed them up a lot, maybe even more. Donkey farms produce a donkey each 30 seconds and they are much cheaper.

  • maybe speed up slightly other slow empire buildings. I was thinking brewery, wineyard, winery, bakery, as they are the major bottlenecks of their economy.

Breweries and bakeries are rather cheap. Imperial bakeries are the best in the game. But it's true, whine might be too expensive. Playing economical collectors with empire is really hard.

As for barbarians: they have very cheap basic soldiers, and they can make them faster than anyone else, so it's all right that they stay weak. those soldiers are also strong enough when fully trained, but also the most expensive to train.

Why the most expensive? But very expensive when surface minerals are gone, yes.

and in the middle of those two extremes, barbarian soldiers are really weak.

This is not completely wrong.

Overall, I think their major problem is with grain economy, again.

their farms are slower, their bread more expensive, and a lot of it is needed for training.

So I think - speed up barbarian farms slightly. either bring them up on par with others (one ware every 80 seconds) or at least bring them to 90 seconds.

  • remove one bread from barbarian evade training.

Yes

  • maybe increase evade by 1% per level too.

As long this doesn't make their supersoldiers overpowered it is reasonable, one could also increase that even more...


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Hasi50
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Posted at: 2019-07-07, 19:25

I think it would be better to slow down Atlanters a little, e.g. make Labyrint etc. just need one extra gold -> no chance to build both of them with inital resources .... Barbarians cannot build both of there training buildings intially ... (World will definitly not like this, I am pretty sure face-smile.png


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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2019-07-07, 20:53

Hasi50 wrote:

I think it would be better to slow down Atlanters a little, e.g. make Labyrint etc. just need one extra gold -> no chance to build both of them with inital resources .... Barbarians cannot build both of there training buildings intially ... (World will definitly not like this, I am pretty sure face-smile.png

you still need a gold mine to make advanced weapons, so adding oone gold or two to the dungeon is not doing much. incidentally, we already added a gold cost to the labirynth a couple years ago, otherwise atlantean could make the first hero without even a gold mine!


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-07-07, 23:09

So I think I can agree on the following:
- make pigeries faster to produce every 40 secs. (this wil increase the wheat demand though)
- make 2 vineyards fully support one winery (or maybe oversupport it a little.)

  • make barbarians farms a bit faster by having the same values for the worker (same would apply for frisians then although they are closer to emp/atl)
  • add 1% evade to barbarian training steps (makes nice numbers I have fed einsteins algorithm with it)

not sure about removing some wares from training as I don't have any feeling what this would mean for frisian balancing. for this I'd rather add some bread to the atlantean training cycle as this does less harm for the other relations I believe.


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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2019-07-10, 00:23

hessenfarmer wrote:

  • add 1% evade to barbarian training steps (makes nice numbers I have fed einsteins algorithm with it)

How do the numbers look like? Would they be bad again if it would be 2% or more?

not sure about removing some wares from training as I don't have any feeling what this would mean for frisian balancing.

Frisians could also use less food for training, it's way too much.

for this I'd rather add some bread to the atlantean training cycle as this does less harm for the other relations I believe.

-1

king_of_nowhere wrote:

Hasi50 wrote:

I think it would be better to slow down Atlanters a little, e.g. make Labyrint etc. just need one extra gold -> no chance to build both of them with inital resources .... Barbarians cannot build both of there training buildings intially ... (World will definitly not like this, I am pretty sure face-smile.png

you still need a gold mine to make advanced weapons, so adding oone gold or two to the dungeon is not doing much.

At the other hand this would do much on maps where gold is far away.

Hasi50 wrote:

I think it would be better to slow down Atlanters a little, e.g. make Labyrint etc. just need one extra gold -> no chance to build both of them with inital resources .... Barbarians cannot build both of there training buildings intially ... (World will definitly not like this, I am pretty sure face-smile.png

Of course I don't like that face-wink.png

Who else thinks that it would be better to halve the gold costs of every barbarian and imperial trainingssite? For example the imperial ones are too expensive anyway.


“It's a threat to our planet to believe that someone else will save it.” - Robert Swan

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