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Topic: new tribe: amazons

king_of_nowhere
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Joined: 2014-09-15, 18:35
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Posted at: 2019-09-10, 22:12

wilderness keepers seem to have some glitch regarding water. everywhere i made keepers and hunter-gatherers close to water, i run out of fish. even where i made 10 keepers and only 3 gatherers, and only open water nearby (with fish;atlanteans can use it fine) i still run out of fish fast.

WorldSavior wrote:

king_of_nowhere wrote:

wather gatherers also are able to get water from ice floes. i'm not against it by itself, but since other tribe's fishers can't use that, amazonians shouldn't either.

You seem to be mistaken: Ice floes are like any other water, fishing is possible there. They just contain zero fish by default.

So I think that it's not a problem. It rather brings more complexity that there is some kind of water where Amazons get water but where getting fish is not possible.

well, makes life easier on ice wars

EDIT: I now played 4 and a half hours on ice wars, and i haven't been able to give the defence 2 promotion to a single soldier. even with full wares, the training glade will kick out soldiers mid-training. evade 3 is also difficult to get, while healt 3 is the first that is given.

Edited: 2019-09-10, 22:33

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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-09-10, 22:44

Ok I changed the training glade input storage, the trainer patience (now like empire), the gardening center (consumes charcoal and fish and goes 6 times terraforming), and added the normal trees attribute to the rare trees(by this treetop sentry can be built on them and lianas are to be cutted an wilderness keepers uses them - side effect they can be cut by normal woodcutters this eases the handling of AI


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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2019-09-10, 22:51

hessenfarmer wrote:

  • side effect they can be cut by normal woodcutters this eases the handling of AI

is that unavoidable? wouldn't it be better to change the liana cutter code and wilderness keeper and treetop sentry as "can work on trees and also on special trees"?

by the way, can woodcutters of other tribes cut down special trees? they must be, otherwise amazonian treewall becomes impassable.

also, is there some way I can contribute writing text or other stuff other than programming? besides playtesting, of course, as i'm already dooing that

Edited: 2019-09-10, 22:53

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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-09-10, 23:16

king_of_nowhere wrote:

hessenfarmer wrote:

  • side effect they can be cut by normal woodcutters this eases the handling of AI

is that unavoidable? wouldn't it be better to change the liana cutter code and wilderness keeper and treetop sentry as "can work on trees and also on special trees"?

more the less the answer is yes due to the next point.

by the way, can woodcutters of other tribes cut down special trees? they must be, otherwise amazonian treewall becomes impassable.

with the latest change they can.

also, is there some way I can contribute writing text or other stuff other than programming? besides playtesting, of course, as i'm already dooing that

we still need to define the other starting conditions, collectors win condition, outline a tutorial mission, create a map for that, so yes you could contribute.

Edited: 2019-09-10, 23:17

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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2019-09-12, 01:54

in the meanwhile, i have discovered that saved games crash if there are amazonian ships. the error message says

[../src/map_io/map_object_packet.cc:130] load_finish for ship: playercolor mask tribes/ships/amazons/sinking_00_pc.png has wrong size: (194 208), should be (213, 180) like the animation frame

perhaps it's just a graphic error due to borrowed graphics, but not being sure, i report it


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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2019-09-12, 04:13

ok, i tried the new version now on fjords.

in theory, it should be amazonians' dream map: they need less space for construction and more for planting trees, and the map has plenty of forested mountain that supports wood but can't be used for constructions. forested mountain is a poor soil to grow trees, but junglemasters plant trees already at the second stage of growth, giiving them a higher chance of survival. at the same time, they are hampered by the lack of space less than other tribes, as they don't need as many farms. I also know the maps, and I now know the tribe enough to avoid the major pitfalls (i had enough ropes and i timed the construction of rare trees at the right time)

how ironic, that a tropical tribe would be best suited for an ice-based map.

Anyway, the tribe's strenghts worked beautifully. I had an excess of wood, which I've never seen on fjords. and with only 5 junglemasters. I had enough ropes too.

Still took me 85 minutes to get a hero soldier. and couldn't make many earlier promotions either. I won't be challenging worldsavior anytime soon. Early game is still a problem, and rare woods are definitely hard to get in a steady suupply, as the training sites eat tons of those. i had 3 rare planters and 3 rare woodcuters - 6 buildings are not a small investment on fjords - and I got nowhere near enough of those trees. i may try making 5 tomorrow.

first, the good thing. the training glade now is fine. it doesn't fight to kick your soldiers out. the storage capacity also works better.

I can't say about the gardening center, as there's no place for it in fjords. neither can i comment on the lianas on rare trees, as i didn't mmake the liana cutters there. i also made the rare trees far from the regular trees, to avoid the regular wooodcutters chopping them down.

old problems remain, though, and I spotted a few new ones:

  • first, an actual bug: training glade does not work at giving the defence 2 promotion. It will consume the wares, and it will have a working cycle, but it does not promote the soldier. remember when I said I didn't see a single soldier with defence 2? that's why. probably it's a small thing caused by a typo in the code.

  • I'm still convinced that wilderness keepers don't work properly when they have to breed fish. they had extremely low productivity values. Can't bring any hard proof on that, though, as fjords has lots of fish so it wouln't run out anytime soon anyway. So, a possible bug

  • dressmaker still only have room for 2 ropes, while it needs lots of ropes in its work cycle. I'd improve that in the following way: dressmaker keeps 6 ropes and 4 gold. I'd also increase stonecarver capacity to 5 hardwood, when it makes spears it needs some buffer

  • I am now convinced that amazonian's early game needs to be improved. First, scale down the cost of hardened spears from 2 ironwood 1 stone to 1 ironwood 1 stone. attack is supposed to be a cheap early game promotion, akin to evade for the other regular three tribes. but with such a large cost in rare wood, it actually becomes too expensive to be viable early. other tribes are able to steadily soldiers in evade after some 20 minutes, amazonias should manage the same. Second, give two master woodcutters in the starting stock, so one can start harvesting rare trees early on. and perhaps increase startng stock of rare woods to 12-12-6 from the actual 10-10-5.

I'd leave the cost of advanced promotions the same, as those look right. they are very expensive, but they are actually supposed to be


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hessenfarmer
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Joined: 2014-12-11, 23:16
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Posted at: 2019-09-12, 11:18

king_of_nowhere wrote:

ok, i tried the new version now on fjords.

in theory, it should be amazonians' dream map: they need less space for construction and more for planting trees, and the map has plenty of forested mountain that supports wood but can't be used for constructions. forested mountain is a poor soil to grow trees, but junglemasters plant trees already at the second stage of growth, giiving them a higher chance of survival. at the same time, they are hampered by the lack of space less than other tribes, as they don't need as many farms. I also know the maps, and I now know the tribe enough to avoid the major pitfalls (i had enough ropes and i timed the construction of rare trees at the right time)

how ironic, that a tropical tribe would be best suited for an ice-based map.

Anyway, the tribe's strenghts worked beautifully. I had an excess of wood, which I've never seen on fjords. and with only 5 junglemasters. I had enough ropes too.

Still took me 85 minutes to get a hero soldier. and couldn't make many earlier promotions either. I won't be challenging worldsavior anytime soon. Early game is still a problem, and rare woods are definitely hard to get in a steady suupply, as the training sites eat tons of those. i had 3 rare planters and 3 rare woodcuters - 6 buildings are not a small investment on fjords - and I got nowhere near enough of those trees. i may try making 5 tomorrow.

first, the good thing. the training glade now is fine. it doesn't fight to kick your soldiers out. the storage capacity also works better.

I can't say about the gardening center, as there's no place for it in fjords. neither can i comment on the lianas on rare trees, as i didn't mmake the liana cutters there. i also made the rare trees far from the regular trees, to avoid the regular wooodcutters chopping them down.

old problems remain, though, and I spotted a few new ones:

  • first, an actual bug: training glade does not work at giving the defence 2 promotion. It will consume the wares, and it will have a working cycle, but it does not promote the soldier. remember when I said I didn't see a single soldier with defence 2? that's why. probably it's a small thing caused by a typo in the code.

confirmed. Just a bloody copy paste error. will be corrected

  • I'm still convinced that wilderness keepers don't work properly when they have to breed fish. they had extremely low productivity values. Can't bring any hard proof on that, though, as fjords has lots of fish so it wouln't run out anytime soon anyway. So, a possible bug

I need to investigate this

  • dressmaker still only have room for 2 ropes, while it needs lots of ropes in its work cycle. I'd improve that in the following way: dressmaker keeps 6 ropes and 4 gold. I'd also increase stonecarver capacity to 5 hardwood, when it makes spears it needs some buffer

Ok will do this. BTW while checking other medium buildings for their input capacity I realized that atlantean weaponsmithy stores 32 wares which seems far too much we should end at 24 to 26 at max.

  • I am now convinced that amazonian's early game needs to be improved. First, scale down the cost of hardened spears from 2 ironwood 1 stone to 1 ironwood 1 stone. attack is supposed to be a cheap early game promotion, akin to evade for the other regular three tribes. but with such a large cost in rare wood, it actually becomes too expensive to be viable early. other tribes are able to steadily soldiers in evade after some 20 minutes, amazonias should manage the same. Second, give two master woodcutters in the starting stock, so one can start harvesting rare trees early on. and perhaps increase startng stock of rare woods to 12-12-6 from the actual 10-10-5.

Ok let's give it a try. Will change it this way tonight

I'd leave the cost of advanced promotions the same, as those look right. they are very expensive, but they are actually supposed to be


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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2019-09-12, 15:56

oh, i forgot to mention. on fjords, treetop sentries saw some use, as there are places where forward settling is blocked by trees. but still very limited. I now believe they are not a balance concern and we can give them a conque radius of 6, like most small military buildings. that will make them more viable


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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2019-09-12, 17:12

hessenfarmer wrote:

Ok will do this. BTW while checking other medium buildings for their input capacity I realized that atlantean weaponsmithy stores 32 wares which seems far too much we should end at 24 to 26 at max.

imperial weaponsmith also has the same capacity.

barbarian doesn't, but only because they don't use wood for their weapons. they still get 8 wares for each type.

al three tribes can store enough wares in their weaponsmiths to run a full production cycle of all weapons.


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-09-12, 17:39

king_of_nowhere wrote:

hessenfarmer wrote:

Ok will do this. BTW while checking other medium buildings for their input capacity I realized that atlantean weaponsmithy stores 32 wares which seems far too much we should end at 24 to 26 at max.

imperial weaponsmith also has the same capacity.

barbarian doesn't, but only because they don't use wood for their weapons. they still get 8 wares for each type.

al three tribes can store enough wares in their weaponsmiths to run a full production cycle of all weapons.

First we have 4 Tribes up to now and will end with 5 very soon. face-wink.png and it just doesn't seem logic to me that these medium buildings can store so much material. from my perspective reducing each ware by one for atlanteans and imperial wouldn't harm a well organised economy. But that is a topic for another thread probably.


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