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Topic: map symmetry

egg
Joined: 2009-06-22, 16:45
Posts: 37
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Pry about Widelands
Posted at: 2013-09-01, 15:13

Many maps aim to give all players equal space, resources, etc., such as the 'Fellowships' map. Have I missed an easy way of duplicating parts of a map (copy paste, or copy mirror paste) in the Widelands map editor, or are the editors of such maps very careful?


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Nasenbaer
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Joined: 2009-02-21, 18:17
Posts: 829
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Location: Germany
Posted at: 2013-09-01, 16:24

The later is the case - at the moment there is neither a copy and paste tool nor a helping feature. Anyway some features have been requested like a mirror tool (see bug report)


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Adamant
Joined: 2012-10-11, 16:21
Posts: 180
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Location: Alemania
Posted at: 2013-09-01, 16:41

Pro Copy&Paste but Con symmetric Maps. As your Question appears in this SubForum probably it does not matter you but there is a Map among the Contest-Maps which was designed with Aim for Asymmetry. I find for a Lot of Games Maps which are very symmetrical and dislike them totally and do never play them and wonder why they exist resp what the Author did intend with or what Players think oif they like them. My Idea is that Players also prefer asymmetric Maps. Now, if I understand correctly, you Intension is ask for Tools to simplify Design of symmetric Maps. May I ask why you want to make the symmetrical? Surely is Balance a Point but do you also prefer playing symmetric Maps?

However, due to my personal Favor I won't support any Tools with aim especially for MapSymmetry - but that is not true for Copy&Paste-Feature which you asked for. Why symmetric Maps, btw?


Ivan the Terrible is dead .. Genghis Khan is dead .. and I do not feel well, too.

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SirVer
Joined: 2009-02-19, 15:18
Posts: 1439
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Location: Germany - Munich
Posted at: 2013-09-01, 17:47

all games that are played as esports title only play on symmetric maps, they offer the most fairness. However, symmetric (or fair) does not equal ugly - the recent winning map of the map contest is very symmetric and fair, but very beautiful still - there were other contenders with similar properties in the contest. There were also perfectly symmetric any very unnatural looking entries in the contest - maybe you mean those kind of symmetric maps?


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teppo
Joined: 2012-01-30, 09:42
Posts: 343
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Posted at: 2013-09-01, 18:40

I have to confess that Fellowships was done using a barely functioning copy tool.. If I ever polish it, I offer it to the official tree. Do not hold your breath, at least not for the coming release.

I fully agree that tools like that lead into fair but boring maps. Still, a copy tool would be a tool and its use would never be mandated!


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Adamant
Joined: 2012-10-11, 16:21
Posts: 180
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Location: Alemania
Posted at: 2013-09-01, 18:50

That Map is indeed symmetric but just very weak in Meaning Number of symmetryAxles. As it's up to 4 Players it's not totally symmetric to each Player but perhaps each Side. So the Author decide a Kind of potential ASymmetry by Approach as this Way it's possible that two symmetric opposided Players get the mayor Role while the both other symmetric gets the minor Role. May be it got fine and effectively well balanced&fair enough and due to its Form (the single Halfs doesn't look symmetric to them self like the round Isles of Egypt ian Mandala). The Winner's Map is surely very symmetric and I consider it as Art of its Author that the Map is not obviously symmetric due to the very unsymmertic Halfs. However, I don't like symmetric Maps and if there is another Map like that of the Winner without that Symmetry I would prefer that Map definetively what means a Map like that but unsymmetric Halfs and nevertheless sufficient balanced.

I rate Fainess lesser than Fun and if we assume that real Players are not always equal strong and there exist weaker and stronger Players and also Things like different Suitability of StartingPositions to different Tribes then I wonder if Balance is really archieved with Constraints that all uses same Tribe but Symmetry I won't doubt here. Perhaps if you want to play in the Champion-League somebody needs perhaps some .0032 Points more to level up due to any Score-Thing-Limits. The Point is that it does not matter me if I don't get up from Top-1000-Players-List into Top-100-Players-List due to I did another Time got a lesser fair Position. In Formula-1 Drivers/Cars with significant better Qualities get even additional Mass to make Races more fair. I won't discuss against Need for sufficient Fairness but I don't like to try to ensure that by obvious Symmetries. I did not test completely my own Favorite due to I was not able to test SeaFaring and started with Obstacle enclosed by Mountains, very tight Eco-Space and no Way to get out and stopped testing more as other Positions/Tribes need to expand on that Map via Ships as well and therefore did not vote for anything as I don't vote for something which I just looks fine to me but I can not play -- was also true for all other Maps, of Course.

However, I did start to create another Time a Representation of my own Idea how a SeaFaringMap may looks like (and also test it practically face-smile-big.png and no Guarantee that anybody else than me will like it and wonder what other Players may say. Perhaps match other Player Interests or perhaps not. For sure ASymmetry is very unwanted. At Present I work still at Watering the Map resp forming the LandMasses and strongly call for Extension of Map-Geometry for 1024X1024 to get more Space between LandMasses. Don't want wide Rivers between but Oceans. face-wink.png


Ivan the Terrible is dead .. Genghis Khan is dead .. and I do not feel well, too.

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einstein13
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Joined: 2013-07-29, 00:01
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Posted at: 2013-09-01, 20:13

I like symmetric maps. Maybe I'm not only one person who like it, but for me it was a bit hard to "produce" some kind of symmetry in my maps. I like them because of fairness (but playing with computers is always unfair for them :p). I use only map editor with no scripting, so my symmetry is not exact, but it exists. @ Adamant I would like to play such a huge maps, but I need better computer. Sometimes with maps ~200x200 I have problems (not smooth playing and hot temperature of processor), so If there is a possibility to have less graphics please tell me. That's the main reason not to create huge maps. In Settlers 2 there was another "small" problems: units up to 8000, no more. In huge maps (I loved "through the desert") you have problems even with attacking enemies and conquering more space. Please be careful with those ideas. They are great but sometimes problematic.


einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/

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egg
Joined: 2009-06-22, 16:45
Posts: 37
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Pry about Widelands
Posted at: 2013-09-02, 10:24

My quest for symmetry is simply this: if a map is seriously asymmetric, one player could be very badly handicapped. I'm not talking about aesthetic symmetry, but symmetry in space and resources. While this might not be much of a problem in a large map, unbalanced handicapping could take the fun out of a small, tight map. What I would like to do is give each player the same resources and space, then maybe add some relatively useless scenery just to make it look asymmetric.


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teppo
Joined: 2012-01-30, 09:42
Posts: 343
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Posted at: 2013-09-02, 10:31

if a map is seriously asymmetric, one player could be very badly handicapped.

With players of unequal skills, unbalanced maps like this could be a key to a fair play. If the asymmetry is known in advance.


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egg
Joined: 2009-06-22, 16:45
Posts: 37
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Pry about Widelands
Posted at: 2013-09-02, 11:33

Very true, teppo. There is room for maps of many types to suit all tastes.


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