Latest Posts

Topic: map symmetry

einstein13
Avatar
Joined: 2013-07-29, 00:01
Posts: 1118
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Location: Poland
Posted at: 2013-09-02, 15:33

So we should make some maps with asymmetric and real description how to use them. Eg.: player 2- begginer, 3- expert, etc. I haven't read all the descriptions but most of them have only "good for 2 vs 2" or something like this.

Edited: 2013-09-02, 15:33

einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/

Top Quote
Adamant
Joined: 2012-10-11, 16:21
Posts: 180
Ranking
Widelands-Forum-Junkie
Location: Alemania
Posted at: 2013-09-02, 18:50

einstein13 wrote:

I like symmetric maps. Maybe I'm not only one person who like it, but for me it was a bit hard to "produce" some kind of symmetry in my maps.

I guess not. I found avg more symmetric Maps than asymmetrical and wondered why these exist resp wonder if their Authors didn't know that the unneccessary Symmetric Constraint causes additional Effort while ASymmetry is for free and looks better and make it more interesting to design and to play the Map and it means lesser Mouse-Work resp Effort to measure exact relative Positions and other geometric Data to create effectively just 'quasi-balanced' Maps as the Tribes are not totally symmetric and Tribes have their specific Characteristics eg. a Map with a very Lot Fish reduce Advantage of Fish-Breeder while Maps without increases Advantage of that Capability. So pure Ice-Desert could be totally Tribe-independent balanced as no Tribe can use it and so all Advantages are in same Amount distributed.

Now I wonder if ASymmetry-Fans are Minority or even perhaps Mayority. However, for Safety-Reasons I call here for Minority-Protection for poor Minority-Players - don't ignore their reasonable Needs (if asymmetric) ! face-smile.png

I like them because of fairness (but playing with computers is always unfair for them :p). I use only map editor with no scripting, so my symmetry is not exact, but it exists.

Really interesting Point as I don't have an Idea what this really means and thus I am very curios about what you can/want/did script. I know Lua works for Game-Mode but never thought it could work for Edit-Mode as well. Exist there any famous symmetric-map-design-lib I never heared? Exist other Libs? Never heard of any Package.

@ Adamant I would like to play such a huge maps, but I need better computer.

Strong Point. You may wonder what Editing did s*x with Release_17 -- with actual BZR I still don't know but there changes significantly a Lot under the Hood. What Gear do you actually use? Age of CPU/MoBo/GPU, Cores, CLK, RAM-Size of CPU/GPU and ChipSet of Mobo would be useful to hear.

I used NoteBook with 2 Cores and 3GB RAM - no real Idea what HW inside as it was from Intel and therefore I was not interested into Details but Replacement. I used Linux and Release 17 to play and edit and starting with clean 512x512 was no Problem but while chanungen Stuff from Default and adding Terrain, Flora and Fauna let effective Performance while Editing went down -- even trivial Things like switching the Tool-Type eg from TerrainHeight to HeightNoise caused curios Performance-Penalities -- IIRC I did wait finally 20 Minutes when switched and therefore I got a Lot Time to consider and plan my future Work to reduce Need for Tool-Switching as best as can and drunk a Lot of Coffee and invested a Lot of Thoughts into the Game. HowEver, still no Idea how new BZR will deal that Matter, I am still at forming flat Terrain, Height will follow, Flora/Fauna at last and therfore I have to wait few Weeks till I get an Idea how Things work now.

This Amount of Penality is curious as Behavior due to if simplified just the Functions linked to the Mouse-Events need to get relinked and doubled Map-Size does not mean doubled Code-Size any mal-designed Code/DataStructure caused Problems which were not that clearly visible while Editing eg 256x256 or 192x192.
I am anyway expectful concerning that Point even I did not read anything to reason that - just noted that loading a Map resp Tribes is now very much faster.
I will experience that next Time if I don't lose another Time my Work.

Sometimes with maps ~200x200 I have problems (not smooth playing and hot temperature of processor)

I experienced Instability while doing anything with NoteBook and anytime I did inspect CPU-Fan and discovered it sucked more Dust&Dirt than a VacuumCleaner in LifeTime. Removing that Stuff changed OperationStability totally and wondered that my NoteBook never told me about thermal Problems ... right - 2013 - I should not expect anything from SoftWare and Safetey&Reliability like that there exist a generic Driver to read Temperature and do any PopUp if Temperature beyond 120°C .. I noted while cleaning the CPU-Fan that the CPU metallic Surface got nice blue and duno if that's the same Colur like that as that CPU left Manufacture. HowEver, other Problems caused super-critical Impact of Forces which caused partial physical DisIntegration of HW. Simple Point is Power-Switch switches Power - does not have to cook Coffee or sing Songs to precast tomorrow's Weater. Simple Point. (FIXED)

So my Idea is that you are perhaps an advanced User and monitor the CPU-Heat-Sensor (I did not due to I expected that any Heat-Alert is surely provided and using a DeskTop for about 8 Years I did not accumulate such Amounts of Dust&Dirt) but perhaps omited since Years to remove 1kg Fibers/Dust/Dirt from CPU-Fan .. just an Idea.

so If there is a possibility to have less graphics please tell me.

Understand your Point. face-smile.png I interprete that as: Better larger Maps than nicer Maps - and you hope reducing DataSize of Graphics could change significantly FPS/GameSpeed. I don't think that's really the Way to go, as well as to do not drop Interior from Ship due to it have to much Load. GPU does not care a Lot if Images are B/W or RGB32 but may consume lesser BandWidth on Busses and occupy some lesser Space in RAMs but the GPU idle this or that Way most Time due to 25 FPS from eg possible 100 FPS means about 75% Idling and 25% Stop-and-Rush if new Data arrived sent from CPU. The Problem is for a large Share, that RAM can just get substituted by more RAM and droping that few 100 MBytes of Media-Data is much lesser effective than adding another 1GB. I won't drop the Ship's Interior due to it got to more Freight loaded.

Some Magic with Code/Data-Structure and Algorithm could reduce the Problem significantly but Map-Size is Map-Size and also with all Code-Magic this Problem can't do arbitrary Amount of Data-Reduction. May you specify your PC concerning to Number of Cores, Core-Clock and RAM-Size related to both seperately CPU and GPU resp how old is that Gear? I would like to see these Information inside User-Profile to get an Idea what Gear the Gamers uss to better interprete Statements about experienced Performance better without unavoidable Need to ask for these Informations due to the Users could have specified them in Profile.

That's the main reason not to create huge maps. In Settlers 2 there was another "small" problems: units up to 8000, no more.

face-grin.png Well, probably not extracted from Documentation I guees. I wonder what analog Limit(s) exist in WideLands?

In huge maps (I loved "through the desert") you have problems even with attacking enemies and conquering more space.

I think you meas: When Enemies attack or Territorial Ownerships changes these are Events which causes quickly the Game to stall. I wonder if Code could go ahead more relaxter by InterimsStates of chaning Economy as a Kind of Delay understood as Shock, similar useless like the Fugitive-Mode when WareHouse falled. From Aspect of GameFlow the Stall is more critical to the Player. As Military Things (could) run same independent like Economies. I still wonder when considering the Soldier's Life in RL: The Captain instruct Troop to move to Foo-Castle. Some Soldier ask if there are also Roads to there due to he don't want to get wet Shoes. Matter of Roads should neither concern to Soldiers nor to Carrier the Way as is. Simple Idea: walking the Road is faster than walking through Grass and Fields and therefore Reason to build them. Economy should not have Problems due to all Sites area always connected and no Road-Topology exist to manage centalized systematically. New Tasks to the Code would appear like autonom Movement and protective Code to avoid that Units collisidate always. Sure Phenomens like RushHours could origin and other curios Artefacts but Idle-Chains look irrealistic due to they behave irrealistic as long as you don't build a Bucket-Chain to exting a Fire or something like. I won't enforce to keep exisitng Idle-Chain-Code to do that centrally regulated but consider simple Rules for a Bucket-Carrier to behave similar simple like an Ant to effect same Result more realistic and cheap for Calculation.

face-smile.png I would like to hear especially your Opinion due to you don't prefer asymmetric Maps about my later finished Map but before I guess I have to advise you several Attempts to free Memory in OS and optimize Swapping if you can't plug RAM. Consider to repartionize the HardDisk into mutiple Sections. Create a dedicated Swap-Partition locates in the Middle of Disk-Capacity to half avg HeadSeekTime. If you can make additional Partitions you can make 2 smaller - one for Windows resp one for SharedLibs for Linux and the other for the Game you want close to the Swap-Matter/Partition to reduce HeadSeekTime while playing some more. Let's assume that BandWidth does not matter a Lot here resp depends almost linear from HeadSeekTime (one Sector in 0ms and another Seek for at Scale of MiliSeconds - eg. 8ms) resp due to recommended Partition-Scheme for perhaps 1ms means 8x faster Swap resp 1/8 Stall-Time of Game. Just theoretical Numbers of several moderate Assumption to get an Idea of Effectivity. Best Trick keeps here at all Cases to buy larger RAM.

Please be careful with those ideas. They are great but sometimes problematic.

I understand your Position to avoid higher Requirements for HardWare caused by Possibility of larger Maps but FYI: For all Things at last their ByteSizes matter resp here, AFAIK the Indices for the Map would change for valid Value from 512 to 1024 what means in Bits 10 instead just 9 Bits what means that two Bytes are this or that Way necessary. That's a probably weak Attempt to explain that this Change should not cause a significant larger Need for RAM for existing smaller Maps than as is but could potentially consume Zero additional Bytes if just few 16Bit-Values need to get updated from 512 to 1024. I would not understand if that would require a single addition KiloByte more RAM to run existing Maps resp even could not understand if it's more than 100 Bytes. That's close to nothing related to Impact of Change as Kind of Option for new Map-Geometries. Sure doubled sizes Maps takes about doubled Amount of Data but that should not be the Point as your special Needs are not special to you but many other Players have similar Problems. Eg my last Gear got heavy Trouble in Editor-Mode (got just 3GB) while my next have already 16GB plugged (but still waits for new CPU) and another 16GB gets plugged same Year results in 32GB. Rather sure even 1k*1k won't cause Trouble to RAM&Swap but 16GB should be sufficient for as well. I can't expect that all like large Maps or if can play them but I nevertheless I hope and argue for that, that slower Gear will keep able to run the Game also in Future by SlowEngine-Support eg by OptionSettings, MapSize, Branch/Version.


Ivan the Terrible is dead .. Genghis Khan is dead .. and I do not feel well, too.

Top Quote
einstein13
Avatar
Joined: 2013-07-29, 00:01
Posts: 1118
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Location: Poland
Posted at: 2013-09-03, 02:22

@ Adamant

I had several problems with understanding your post. So please correct my mistakes.

Now I wonder if ASymmetry-Fans are Minority or even perhaps Mayority

I think we should make small questionnaire about it and then we will know face-smile.png

I don't have an Idea what this really means and thus I am very curios about what you can/want/did script. I know Lua works for Game-Mode but never thought it could work for Edit-Mode as well. Exist there any famous symmetric-map-design-lib I never heard? Exist other Libs? Never heard of any Package.

Probably here is my mistake of understanding some posts like here: https://wl.widelands.org/maps/australia/. You can read that you can import graphics (how?). I thought that you can even make script for importing graphics or making whole map. I heard (in other place) "Lua" and didn't check what it is. So- my mistake. (But why not scripts for making maps?! Is it a bad idea?)

What Gear do you actually use? Age of CPU/MoBo/GPU, Cores, CLK, RAM-Size of CPU/GPU and ChipSet of Mobo would be useful to hear.

4 Years old computer with WinXP. Processor: Turion X2, double core, 2.2 GHz. Graphics: Radeon 3200, RAM for both (system & graphics): 3 GB. This is a Notebook, with long history. After 1 year I changed the screen (it was broken). After next 6 months I needed reballing. After those fixing my computer got high temperatures inside. Now, with no work, it has about 75-80 deg C. Some games get temperatures above 105 C and then everything is off. I sometimes has that with Widelands. I managed to decrese of "fps" in options and because of that playing is much better, but still- there is a problem for me.

About RAM: this is problem for 32bit systems, that You can't have more than 4 GB for one program (usualy it is ~3 GB ). With 64bit systems the limit is 4 PB (PetaBytes) or limit of your chips and hard disk.

Not smooth playing (jam- google translate has only this for polish "zacinać się"): I know that most of that stuff is because of number of units on the map. More units= more calculations= longer time for one frame of gameplay But the second problem (for my computer) is graphics. More graphics = higher temperature = possibility to overheat the hardware.

while cleaning the CPU-Fan that the CPU metallic Surface got nice blue and duno if that's the same Colur like that as that CPU left Manufacture

I have cleaned my computer, but it didn't work at all. So problem is in other place: old and used processors. I remember times when CPU was working for 3 days (with no break) computing one problem. No I can't do that.

That's the main reason not to create huge maps. In Settlers 2 there was another "small" problems: units up to 8000, no more.

Well, probably not extracted from Documentation I guees. I wonder what analog Limit(s) exist in WideLands?

I've never seen Settlers 2 documentation face-grin.png I've made only severals experiments. Limits were connected to 16bit system, so only several thousands of memory addresses. Now limits can be much higher, but (now) it is still problem to calculate all the movements and destinations of units in very short time.

you have problems even with attacking enemies and conquering more space.

I mean that because of unit limit you could not conquer more space because no soldiers were going to the front line. You could have hundreds of soldiers in warehouse but nobody was going to your fortress. That was the problem.

I would like to hear especially your Opinion due to you don't prefer asymmetric Maps about my later finished Map

I would like to see that map face-smile.png I checked maps here, but I couldn't find yours. Maybe I will try it with actual system and RAM size face-smile.png And to be honest: I like all the maps, but I don't prefer asymmetric maps.

Best Trick keeps here at all Cases to buy larger RAM.

First step: buy new computer (probably desktop), then more RAM. And to do that I need money... That is the main reason why I have problems with hardware- no money to upgrade or change it. New Intel processor i5 costs about 800 PLN (~200 E). I cannot afford that (today). I try not to eat face-smile.png It is the easiest way to save money face-smile.png and get fit! face-grin.png

the Indices for the Map would change for valid Value from 512 to 1024 what means in Bits 10 instead just 9 Bits

It should be always 32 Bits for each number (in 32bit system). Or the documentation separate Bytes into Bits? I was learned, that this is possible but not recommended to separate Bytes into Bits in program code.

But problem is in another place. Suppose that for map 512x512 we need 1 GB of memory. It means that for similar map 1024x1024 we will need 4 GB of memory. The problem is "n^2" (n- square). And suppose that for one frame of gameplay we need 25 ms in 512x512 map (1/40 seconds- still smooth play). The same: 1024x1024 means 100 ms for one frame (1/10 sec. -not smooth gameplay). These are only short calculations about huge maps.

Please, correct my mistakes, if any.


einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/

Top Quote
SirVer
Joined: 2009-02-19, 15:18
Posts: 1441
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Location: Germany - Munich
Posted at: 2013-09-03, 06:22

einstein13, make sure that opengl rendering is enabled for you: options -> advanced options -> OpenGL rendering or so. It should make a big improvement to the performance of the game. Other parts of the game that are very CPU hungry are the computer players and fighting.


Top Quote
Adamant
Joined: 2012-10-11, 16:21
Posts: 180
Ranking
Widelands-Forum-Junkie
Location: Alemania
Posted at: 2013-09-03, 12:42

einstein13 wrote:

@ Adamant

I had several problems with understanding your post. So please correct my mistakes.

I guess there exist multiple Reasosn - one may be my Attemt to be subtile funny with a foreign Language. face-wink.png

Now I wonder if ASymmetry-Fans are Minority or even perhaps Mayority

I think we should make small questionnaire about it and then we will know face-smile.png

Without Fun I would like to hear/see any Survey about that Point.

I don't have an Idea what this really means and thus I am very curios about what you can/want/did script. I know Lua works for Game-Mode but never thought it could work for Edit-Mode as well. Exist there any famous symmetric-map-design-lib I never heard? Exist other Libs? Never heard of any Package.

Probably here is my mistake of understanding some posts like here: https://wl.widelands.org/maps/australia/.

wow ..... nice Work!

You can read that you can import graphics (how?). I thought that you can even make script for importing graphics or making whole map. I heard (in other place) "Lua" and didn't check what it is. So- my mistake. (But why not scripts for making maps?! Is it a bad idea?)

I don't like symmetric Maps but using Scripts to create symmetric Maps is impressive straight! face-smile.png (never the less I wonder if/what Lua can do with/for the Editor. Perhaps several Custom-Buttons resp a Way for FOO-Lua-Scripts to do transform symmetric Maps into asymmetric Maps?)

What Gear do you actually use? Age of CPU/MoBo/GPU, Cores, CLK, RAM-Size of CPU/GPU and ChipSet of Mobo would be useful to hear. 4 Years old computer with WinXP. Processor: Turion X2, double core, 2.2 GHz. Graphics: Radeon 3200, RAM for both (system & graphics): 3 GB. This is a Notebook, with long history.

After 1 year I changed the screen (it was broken). After next 6 months I needed reballing. After those fixing my computer got high temperatures inside. Now, with no work, it has about 75-80 deg C.

That's indeed critical as beyond the CPU starts aging/wear_out very quickly. ^^

Some games get temperatures above 105 C and then everything is off. I sometimes has that with Widelands.

Cause above sounds curious to me but ReSume seems to be simple: there is Sand in the GearBox and Engine will wear out rather quickly.

I managed to decrese of "fps" in options and because of that playing is much better, but still- there is a problem for me.

I experienced similar Things with polluted Fan. Operation instable and starting Things like WL worked for perhaps 5 Minutes resp in critical Action-Situation CPU teminated iteratively Operation and I need to reboot Gear. My Idea is: there is not just anything wrong but all with your CPU-Cooling. I guess something like Fan does not run (Power?), Chiller not attachted to CPU etc.

About RAM: this is problem for 32bit systems, that You can't have more than 4 GB for one program (usualy it is ~3 GB ).

With 64bit systems the limit is 4 PB (PetaBytes) or limit of your chips and hard disk.

I don't know how to insert more than 1TB RAM for a special Configuration. 4PB is a theoretical Value and I don't care if more than 48 Bits from AddressBus lead out of CPU as I would be very rich would I have 256 TB RAM here. Turion DuoCore is however 64 Bit - no Idea what RAM your Mobo can deal with. 4GB sounds to me very plausible. Note that all unutilized (free) RAM does not accellerate your Computer in any Way but the first Byte that overceed the available free RAM causes the OS to swap and that's like falling from HyperSpace into NormalSpace and Things continue in SlowMotion. That means that your Computer could perhaps even get much faster from just 128MB if that's the Amount the OS need to avoid swapping -- so putting in another 1GB could help you a Lot with Performance-Issues - even if a moderner Computer taste much better. Dunno what you need but 1 or 2 GB used RAM on EWay for a small Buck could solve/reduce your Problems for eg half Year. That Temperature-Issue is like a Damokles-Sword over your CPU and renders potentially all other Ideas to be useless.

Graphics: Radeon 3200, RAM for both (system & graphics): 3 GB. This is a Notebook, with long history. After 1 year I changed the screen (it was broken). After next 6 months I needed reballing. After those fixing my computer got high

Not smooth playing (jam- google translate has only this for polish "zacinać się"): hi from de. face-smile.png

I know that most of that stuff is because of number of units on the map. More units= more calculations= longer time for one frame of gameplay But the second problem (for my computer) is graphics. More graphics = higher temperature = possibility to overheat the hardware.

your GPU got another Heat-Problem as well? probably considered to CPU-Temp-Problem as if GPU dumps more Heat the CPU without effective Cooling dumps critical lesser. I don't consider your Thermal Problems to be representative for older Geadm, btw, even if problematical. I know from general thermal Problems but your Scenario is not really just problematical but close to WorstCase for Thermal Issues.

while cleaning the CPU-Fan that the CPU metallic Surface got nice blue and duno if that's the same Colur like that as that CPU left Manufacture

I have cleaned my computer, but it didn't work at all. So problem is in other place: old and used processors.

Perhaps that's the Point. Did you check if your CPU is a CPU for Mobiles? Diffs are PowerConsumptions proportional HeadDump.

I remember times when CPU was working for 3 days (with no break) computing one problem. No I can't do that.

That's the main reason not to create huge maps. In Settlers 2 there was another "small" problems: units up to 8000, no more.

Well, probably not extracted from Documentation I guees. I wonder what analog Limit(s) exist in WideLands?

I've never seen Settlers 2 documentation face-grin.png I've made only severals experiments. Limits were connected to 16bit system, so only several thousands of memory addresses. Now limits can be much higher, but (now) it is still problem to calculate all the movements and destinations of units in very short time.

face-smile.png I consider other Amounts of PayLoads to be problematical for a Processor. Your CPU got about 2.000.000.000 Clocks per Second and two Cores and SIMD .. anything that Things should do in its WorkTime.

you have problems even with attacking enemies and conquering more space.

I mean that because of unit limit you could not conquer more space because no soldiers were going to the front line. You could have hundreds of soldiers in warehouse but nobody was going to your fortress. That was the problem.

understood

Best Trick keeps here at all Cases to buy larger RAM.

First step: buy new computer (probably desktop), then more RAM. And to do that I need money...

My Suggestion is to try to get 2GB-Module for €10-20 from 2nd-Hand.

That is the main reason why I have problems with hardware- no money to upgrade or change it. New Intel processor i5 costs about 800 PLN (~200 E).

I would never buy any Gear from Intel if I can omit and I can omit. Why don't take more economical Stuff from AMD?
ounds somewhat to me like having no Car but want Mercedes due to that's advertised as the very very best (even I think totally different for Intel and AMD is cleary significant better (and even better). Don't guess any Fan-Boy-Things, better CPUs are not in the X64/x86-Line. Niagara-II+ are CPU is very much better Architecture but 0racle bought SUN Years ago. My also Hint is according to both technical and ecominical Constraits: get more Speed for your Money by AMD-Gear)

I cannot afford that (today). I try not to eat face-smile.png It is the easiest way to save money face-smile.png and get fit! face-grin.png

face-smile-big.png

the Indices for the Map would change for valid Value from 512 to 1024 what means in Bits 10 instead just 9 Bits

It should be always 32 Bits for each number (in 32bit system). Or the documentation separate Bytes into Bits? I was learned, that this is possible but not recommended to separate Bytes into Bits in program code.

That's correct but you have to factor in that eg. a Variable which specify the Geometry of an Array may be 16 Bits to take Value 1024 while the concerning Array takes 10241024 Entries instead 512512 what means 4 Times so many Data for 4 Times larger Map ---- IF the Map is really 4 Times larger. For your played Maps Value 192 fits well into a single Byte but nevertheless it's stored in 16 Bits as if Map changes to 256+32=288 that Value have to fit into same Variable - so we are at 16 Bits here this or that Way.

But problem is in another place. Suppose that for map 512x512 we need 1 GB of memory. It means that for similar map 1024x1024 we will need 4 GB of memory. The problem is "n^2" (n- square). And suppose that for one frame of gameplay we need 25 ms in 512x512 map (1/40 seconds- still smooth play). The same: 1024x1024 means 100 ms for one frame (1/10 sec. -not smooth gameplay). These are only short calculations about huge maps.

face-smile.png FYI: CPU does with ordinary Programming 90% of Time idle useless due to it waits for new Data from RAM or stall due to stupid Acelleration-Technologies like Out-of-Order-Execution and other Crap it have to trash its Work and restore CPU into previous State to continue correctly and other Things. Due to Design the GPU does also Idle the very most Time as it waits for actual 3D-Data sent from CPU. Don't think with 25 FPS your GPU is anyway stressed. It is bored whole Day and does mostly idle.

In this Context see my Advice here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/widelands/+bug/1219906?comments=all

That would solve your FPS-Performance-Problem totally aside of thermal Issues.

Please, correct my mistakes, if any.

of course, of course -- very very likey! face-wink.png

Btw I consider the basic Approach you deal with Problems to be very useful even you still leak of a Lot Experience and Knowledge. You know about essntial Things like Memory-Addresses but I guess you still did not (really really) start with Programming.
That Way no matter what Code you screw for what Aim you can learn a Lot of basic Things like solving numerical Problems with working Code utilizing exisitng Features of a Processor. More interesting than learning how to program is to learn how to program it better and discover you can do it this Way or 100 Times faster that Way. Perhaps try Java due to it's rather simple resp comfortable like a Car with Automatic Transmission and ABS EPG, FOO and BAR and later you may wonder to try C++ as some Kind of Ralley-Car almost without any Interior but a Kind of Minimum and you can resp even have to install a Fan manually if you want some but can place Fan, Switch, Wires like you want. Sure lesser suitd to get a DriverLicense than with Java with a Lot Assistance-Systems you can't drop to win a Race.

Edited: 2013-09-03, 12:45

Ivan the Terrible is dead .. Genghis Khan is dead .. and I do not feel well, too.

Top Quote
einstein13
Avatar
Joined: 2013-07-29, 00:01
Posts: 1118
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Location: Poland
Posted at: 2013-09-03, 17:02

To end about me: I study physics and automatics & robotics. I know languages: C, PHP, Java, Wolfram Mathematica and Matlab. This year also Python and C#. Everything for numerical problems in my subjects, almost nothing for graphics and games. I know that it is not enough to help you with programming, but sometimes (not always!) I can tell where the problem is. Probably you are right, that in my case not graphics but other stuff is the problem. Why I want Intel? Because now I have problems with AMD. Lots of problems.

And about scripting in the editor: I would like to make some maps not only symmetric ones. For example I would like to make a maze (labirynth) for players, generated with script. Doing it with "my own hands" in the editor can be very hard (5-8 hours of making one map?). But: Do the scripts for editor exist? I still don't know that. I'll try to find it one day, or produce a short program for that. But not today, not today face-wink.png

with a foreign Language.

For me it is a foregein Language and not every abbreviation is known for me. For example easy and common "FYI"? For Your something? Idea? Information? A guess the second one face-wink.png Sometimes it is not hard to get the context but sometimes I need a google-translate to get several words.

Thanks for long and detailed answers. I will try to use some info from here face-smile.png

Einstein13

Ps.: last question: why here in the forum I can't do only one "new line" space?


einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/

Top Quote
SirVer
Joined: 2009-02-19, 15:18
Posts: 1441
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Location: Germany - Munich
Posted at: 2013-09-04, 08:02

Year Physics! I studied that too :).

About scripting in the editor: When you have a debug build you can press F6 to bring up the debug console (also in the editor) and the you can use Lua's dofile() to run any Lua script you want to. This is a bandaid at best though - scripting in the editor is universally useful (I know because I use it all the time will making scenario maps), but a nice interface must be found.

Ps.: last question: why here in the forum I can't do only one "new line" space?

The forum uses markdown syntax by default. I do not know what you want to do, but likely you have to end your line with two spaces (this gets you a linebreak without ending the paragraph). More reference here: http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/


Top Quote
einstein13
Avatar
Joined: 2013-07-29, 00:01
Posts: 1118
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Location: Poland
Posted at: 2013-09-22, 18:25
teppo
With players of unequal skills, unbalanced maps like this could be a key to a fair play. If the asymmetry is known in advance.

I have tried to build such a map. With great sea (not the ocean :( ). It should be a bit fair for different skill level, but please check it. I've never played with other people, so I can only guess.
Map: https://wl.widelands.org/maps/the-maze/
This map is huge and all the time (about 2 weeks?) I was thinking if this work can be done by the computer, not me (some kind of scripting!...).
To end my comment, an image of map (when playing against 7 AI) ;)

einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/

Top Quote
egg
Joined: 2009-06-22, 16:45
Posts: 37
Ranking
Pry about Widelands
Posted at: 2013-09-23, 11:04

Good idea, teppo! Of course, it takes an experienced map designer to measure the relatively difficulties of the player positions. I wonder if the positions could be scored empirically, by measuring the success of AI players. How did you assess the relative strengths?


Top Quote
teppo
Joined: 2012-01-30, 09:42
Posts: 423
Ranking
Tribe Member
Posted at: 2013-09-23, 11:24

The maker of the map knows his map best. He/she could write such thoughts to the map description.

I think it might be difficult to make an algorithm to evaluate the starting positions. Looping through a large set of AI-only games and finding the winning fraction of each slot might work. The amount of CPU time would be massive, though.


Top Quote