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Topic: map symmetry

einstein13
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Joined: 2013-07-29, 00:01
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Posted at: 2013-09-23, 17:56

teppo wrote: The maker of the map knows his map best. He/she could write such thoughts to the map description.

That is true! Probably the idea of different levels of difficulty shoud be at the beggining of designing the map. I've tried to do that. Expert don't have any coal (for example) and not enough stone. But this is not easy to make it fair for them. I'm not skilled of making maps, so this map needs corrections.

I think it might be difficult to make an algorithm to evaluate the starting positions. Looping through a large set of AI-only games and finding the winning fraction of each slot might work.

In my oppinion we can try every map by playing with another people. At first- get know each other with "symmetry" map. Then we will know how much each player know about widelands and strategy. And we can play any asymmetric map to evaluate the starting positions.

The idea of "AI- only games" will work only on small maps. Large maps are playable for hours and don't end with AI-players only face-smile.png


einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/

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teppo

Joined: 2012-01-30, 09:42
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Posted at: 2013-09-24, 10:11

not enough stone

Challenges like this affect the various tribes differently. A difficult slot, which is difficult as a result of limited stone, is easier for Atlanteans than for Empire.

In my oppinion we can try every map by playing with another people.

That it a lot of work, especially if more than one game would be planned. Mind you, some maps are big. I think that the automated version would make more sense, keeping in mind that the amount of CPU time might be too much so it could be a dead end too. Trusting on map makers' opinions would be nice.. Should the maps have a "slot difficulty indicator", to encourage map-makers to write down information like this?

The idea of "AI- only games" will work only on small maps. Large maps are playable for hours and don't end with AI-players only

Depends on win condition. Endless game never ends. Time-limited ones always end. If none of the existing win conditions would be suitable, more can be sketched.


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fk
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Posted at: 2013-09-24, 13:23

"I wonder if the positions could be scored empirically, by measuring the success of AI players."

A test at 100x speed does not take long: 1 minute equals 100 minutes of game time. At least this makes clear which players advance most, acquire most wares and such things. It would be the best of course if the computer could play against itself and to watch which AI-player wins most games, but I haven't seen this possibility.


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teppo

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Posted at: 2013-09-24, 13:32

A test at 100x speed does not take long

I do not have such computers. >1x is of course possible, and it would be silly not to run at max speed, but 100x on a large map with many players, all AI, sounds impossible.

I haven't seen this possibility.

If course, it is not possible today. The code is rather well structured -- A looper like that might not be that difficult. If scoring maps would be considered important, somebody might grab the challenge.


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fk
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Posted at: 2013-09-24, 14:10

100x on a large map with many players, all AI, sounds impossible.

I don't know what you consider to be a large map, but up to 3 AI-players have not been any problem over here.


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einstein13
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Posted at: 2013-09-24, 15:03

100x on a large map with many players, all AI, sounds impossible. up to 3 AI-players have not been any problem over here.

Up to 3 players is ok, but most of large maps are designed for more players :) I've never tried 100x speed face-smile.png

And to solve problem of only AI players: you can play a multiplayer mode as an observer and choose every player as a computer :) Now I'm trying the game like this face-smile.png

EDIT: after a while 2 computers got stuck. Noone had a mill and a bakery and space for it. Why? Because they were fighting and no soliders have left face-smile.png

Edited: 2013-09-24, 15:10

einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/

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teppo

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Posted at: 2013-09-24, 15:34

after a while 2 computers got stuck. Noone had a mill and a bakery and space for it.

One needs many repeats, to score the start positions with AI. That's why I would like to make it more automatic.


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einstein13
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Posted at: 2013-09-24, 15:37

AND better AI players :) Now I'm playing another game and whole map is covered by trees. It's impossible to expand and conquer another players.


einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/

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fk
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Posted at: 2013-09-25, 08:46

Up to 3 players is ok, but most of large maps are designed for more players. I've never tried 100x speed

Well, for 6 players that would still be 50x speed, if 100x would be close to some limit. But I understood that not every computer can do this.

And to solve problem of only AI players: you can play a multiplayer mode as an observer and choose every player as a computer

Sounds cool.

Now I'm playing another game and whole map is covered by trees. It's impossible to expand and conquer another players.

That's basically a fight against trees. face-wink.png You need better felling axes, not better AI.


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einstein13
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Joined: 2013-07-29, 00:01
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Posted at: 2013-09-25, 11:44

fk wrote: That's basically a fight against trees. face-wink.png You need better felling axes, not better AI.

Probably face-tongue.png But most of AI players builds one type of building in large amount. Then it gets stuck (traffic jams) and run out of stone/ marble/ diamonds/ ... Trees are getting closer to the empire and everything is going bad (no place to expand). This night I've played a map "The maze" (https://wl.widelands.org/maps/the-maze/) and the simulation took about 40 hours of gameplay. There is only one AI player completely destroyed (6-8 hour of gameplay), two are destroyed partially and one or two are fighting.

The max speed of play (on my computer) is x4. To have stable game (and system) I've used x3. I've tried even faster, but then the game crushed (the window existet, but the program didn't respond to the system).


einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/

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