Currently Online

Latest Posts

Topic: Mining strategy

mxb2001
Avatar
Topic Opener
Joined: 2019-05-20, 18:49
Posts: 237
OS: Linux
Version: 1.1
Ranking
Widelands-Forum-Junkie
Location: The land of the thirsty spider
Posted at: 2024-01-20, 22:35

So when playing Barbs or others with multi level mines is it better to stop and empty a partially exhausted mine (up to that level) and open up a new shallow mine? Only upgrading to deeper levels when you run out of shallow mines?

I'm starting to suspect that my strategy is not ideal though...


--
To Boldly Go Where No Man Has Gone Before

Top Quote
tothxa
Avatar
Joined: 2021-03-24, 12:44
Posts: 425
OS: antix / Debian
Version: some new PR I'm testing
Ranking
Tribe Member
Posted at: 2024-01-21, 03:19

For Barbarians and the Empire, shallow mines are cheaper to run. (total effective costs of consumed food / one piece of mined resource) Barbarian medium ("deep") mines are the most expensive to run, except for gold, which is the same for "deep" and "deeper", and if I didn't make a mistake in my calculations, iron "deeper" is even slightly cheaper than plain. Empire coal and marble mines have little difference though between plain and deep, while iron and gold have somewhat more. But in exchange for the increased cost, you also get faster production.

Frisians have lots of options for food production for mines, with different costs. Also their meal is super expensive. On the other hand, their deep mines are much more productive than plain ones, so in the end plain mines cost more to run than deep ones, except for coal, which is about the same. But you need a lot of infrastructure before you can afford deep ones.

So there's no uniform optimal strategy for mine levels for any tribe. It always depends on the map and the game situation too.

Edited: 2024-01-21, 03:20

Top Quote
usingUser
Avatar
Joined: 2024-01-19, 19:54
Posts: 18
Version: 1.1 Release
Ranking
Pry about Widelands
Posted at: 2024-01-21, 08:57

@tothxa Do you have figures (numbers)?


Top Quote
mxb2001
Avatar
Topic Opener
Joined: 2019-05-20, 18:49
Posts: 237
OS: Linux
Version: 1.1
Ranking
Widelands-Forum-Junkie
Location: The land of the thirsty spider
Posted at: 2024-01-21, 18:43

tothxa wrote:

For Barbarians and the Empire, shallow mines are cheaper to run. (total effective costs of consumed food / one piece of mined resource)

Hmm. I'm wondering though. What about the cost of the miners? If you open 100 shallow mines you need 100 miners. That's 100 picks (- what you started with in miners + spare picks)...

This is what caused me to ask since I found that lots of shallow mines tend to get hung up on missing workers.


--
To Boldly Go Where No Man Has Gone Before

Top Quote
tothxa
Avatar
Joined: 2021-03-24, 12:44
Posts: 425
OS: antix / Debian
Version: some new PR I'm testing
Ranking
Tribe Member
Posted at: 2024-01-22, 18:19

Re 100 shallow mines: But deeper mines need more miners and more building materials too. Though that actually seems to come to the same: enhancements cost the same as the first one (except Frisians, who have deep mines slightly more expensive) and get you the same amount of mineable materials. (50% then another 50%, or 1/3, next 1/3 and last 1/3 for Barbarians)

My calculation was originally posted in this post. For costs I'm considering the total cumulative sum of production steps a ware needs: e.g. fish, meat or water cost 1 because they're just gathered. Also wheat (barley, grapes etc.) is calculated as 1 in the steady state. Barbarian pitta needs 3 wheat and 3 water for 2 pitta, so that becomes (3+3)/2 + 1 for the work of the baker, giving an effective cost of 4. This ignores production times, required map space and building materials (at least building costs per produced ware converges to 0 in the long run for renewable wares).

Barbarians

Foods:

You have absolutely no reason ever to use pitta for rations, as meat from hunters costs 1 and is renewable for them. So ration costs 2. (though you may need to keep your ration needs oversaturated by taverns to achieve this, because inns may prefer to use pitta – I'm not sure about that)
Snack needs beer (1 wheat + 1 water + 1 processing = 3), bread (4, see above) and fish/meat (1), total cost with processing is 9.
Meal costs the same, because strong beer actually costs the same as plain beer.

Mines:

Mined amount / food:

Resource Shallow Deep Deeper
coal 2 4 5
iron 1 4 5
gold 1 4 4

Effective cost of mined material:

The resource taken from the ground also increases the cost in the spreadsheet (because they're non-renewable), so I'm doing that here too.

Resource Shallow Deep Deeper
coal 3 4.25 3.8
iron 4 4.25 3.8
gold 4 4.25 4.25

This is getting long, and I need to go now. Empire and Frisians coming in another post later.

Edited: 2024-01-22, 22:10

Top Quote
tothxa
Avatar
Joined: 2021-03-24, 12:44
Posts: 425
OS: antix / Debian
Version: some new PR I'm testing
Ranking
Tribe Member
Posted at: 2024-01-22, 22:50

Empire

Foods:

flour: 2, bread: 4, beer: 3, wine: 3, meat from piggery: 3

In the beginning you're better off if you only make rations from fish (and hunted meat), but later, when fish starts to become scarce, you should switch to bread, and keep fish and meat (by this time clearly from piggery) for soldier training and meals. Below calculations are for the early game and assuming fish is abundant, so ration costs 2.

Meal, also in early game, costs 6.

Mines:

Mined amount / food:

Resource Shallow Deep
marble 2 3
coal 3 5
iron 3 4
gold 2 3

Effective cost of mined material:

Resource Shallow Deep
marble 5.5 5.67
coal 3.67 3.8
iron 3.67 4.25
gold 4.5 5

Frisians

Foods:

fruit: 1, smoked fish/meat: 2, bread: 3, beer:3, honey bread: 4, mead: 4

(again, while map fish resource is abundant, otherwise bred fish costs 4)

Now, here you have many options for rations: only fruit: 2, only fish(/meat): 3, fruit+fish: 2, bread+fish: 3, only bread: 4 (clearly, you should avoid the last one). I took 2.5 as average in the spreadsheet, but I revised it here to 2, which is possible if taverns only get fruit (and possibly fish/meat), and no bread. This way shallow coal becomes better than deep coal, and gold is the same. (by this very simple approximation)

Meal: 10

Mines:

Mined amount / food:

Resource Shallow Deep
coal 2 7
iron 1 7
gold 1 5

Effective cost of mined material:

Resource Shallow Deep
coal 3 3.43
iron 4 3.43
gold 4 4

Charcoal costs 5 on average, if you build groups of a clay pit, a charcoal burner's house, a well, a charcoal kiln and a few foresters and woodcutters. This is often worth it, as it's all renewable (wells don't really need actual water :)), so you can spare the expensive and troublesome foodstuff for the metals and soldier training, and don't have to relocate your coal production all the time.


Top Quote