Topic: Amazons balancing

hessenfarmer wrote:

Well I did not intent to make it the equivalentof iron for all tools and as a general build material. I really just meant to add it to the cases I mentioned.

I know, but it just fell into place like this. Tools are not a running cost anyway, and the 2 pieces needed for soldiers wouldn't justify the addition alone IMO.

By this all other additions like rare kilns are being superfluous imho.
Amazons were designed a tribe with not that much buildings but with requiring more of each type.

Hey, I was just having fun. It's just an enhancement anyway, so not a big addition to the number of building types. Also they help to compensate the increased demand for coal. In that regard they also just fell into place.

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tothxa wrote:

hessenfarmer wrote:

However mining is still very expensive for Amazons in comparison because to produce one gold you need 2 coal (furnace and ration) which is 12 logs, 7 water (5 to mine 2 for bread), one cassava root, one fish/meat which is 21 wares.
Barbarians will only need 2 meat (one to mine coal and one to mine gold).
So I really think all gold requiring steps are expensive enough already.

You should also consider all the iron that Amazons don't need before it comes to needing gold in the first place, as well as all the coal that is used by the various armour and weapon smithies of other tribes, but not Amazons.

Also, 1 raw food item is only enough to mine 1/3 of the available gold for Barbarians (1/2 for Empire and Frisians IIRC), so the costs of all mine depths should be averaged too.

I'll try to do a bigger assesment, but that'll take time.

i once tried to summ up all economy costs for all tribes to produce soldiers and to balnce this but in this attempt i got lost when I realized that the tribes have different timings as well and we would need to average/baseline that as well to get comparable numbers.

to keep it short I would be happy with using quartz for speartips and some sharp tools but not for durable ones (so please revert the pick to granite also to avoid deadlocks).
I can accept the new tool firestones for the charcoal burner as long as there is a burner ore a firestone in the start conditions.
Having quartz for advanced military buildings is ok as well, but not for the dwelling as no other tribe needs iron for a very basic medium miltary building so make the quartz a granite for the dwelling please.
eventually we might add a quartz to the hero boots as well, but that should be the only change so I strongly vot to reduce the needed gold again to 3.

that should be enough to do the balancing.
I can live with the invention of an upgraded kiln but I still think it is not of much use for the same reason as Nordfriese said. And by this making new graphics and maintaining it does not add much and still creates some workload.
having a new and different tool (selected_firestones) for this is an overkill imho. If you really insist on having this kiln you might add a normal chrcoal burner as a second worker.

Imho I still recommend to do the necessary balancing in the most simplistic way, to not modify the tribes character too much.

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I simplified the stone mine program, but that means it now always produces 1 granite and 1 quartz, so quartz is slower.

I also noticed in my above calculations that Amazons need a little less than half of fish/meat than the other tribes. (both in master and in the PR) As my modifications increased water requirement significantly, and that was already about twice of other tribes, I'm considering lowering water requirement of cocoa and bread to 1 like other tribes, but add one water and one more fish/meat to ration. This would mean only a very small increase of water compared to current master, and bring fish/meat to be similar to other tribes.

But I also recognise that this is now indeed getting too big a change, so I'll split out quartz as requested into a separate PR. However I'll be away for a few days, so this will only happen when I'm back.

I'd really like to still replace one rubber with 1 gold for evade 2, because that one's too cheap as compared to others at similar and lower levels. (but not increase evade 3 itself to 2 gold) Would that be OK for the minimal PR?

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Sounds cool this quartz business. Keeps them in the stone age and makes mining more interesting for them. No comment on the balance, I'm just remarking on the aesthetics from the end user POV.

More stone types like flint, amber, jade would be cool too.

--
To Boldly Go Where No Man Has Gone Before

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Quartz only PR is up: https://codeberg.org/wl/widelands/pulls/4512 / https://github.com/widelands/widelands/pull/6170

Swift boot was left alone for now, due to the disagreement.

I left pick as log+quartz, because other tribes use iron for picks, so this shouldn't be any different deadlock-wise. However from a physical point of view, I don't think any kind of stone is suitable for picks and chisels that have to work on stone. So I'm open to making these require ironwood instead if needed. (that's a fictious very hard wood anyway, and any kind of wood is at least not brittle like stones – we could make stonecutters use wooden wedges with hammers, and levers, but that would need new working animations)

I also left the stonemine to always produce 1 granite and 1 quartz. I think this fits the character of the tribe, and also that we don't need to make quartz easier from the balancing POV either.

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