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Topic: Amazons balancing

tothxa
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Posted at: 2023-09-16, 12:59

OK, I will add quartz then. (at least that's already defined) Though the main appeal to me was that charcoal burners could have used it as their tool. Would you be OK with "firestone" as the name of the tool? (at least Wikipedia says flint is a form of quartz anyway)

Though then I'd make charcoal masters require an advanced "firestone" made of 2 quartz. Is that possible in a single step, or do I need to introduce an intermediate worker (experienced charcoal burner) to first require experience, then become master by getting the new tool?


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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2023-09-16, 13:08

Yes, Firestone as a tool made from quartz sounds good.

Though then I'd make charcoal masters require an advanced "firestone" made of 2 quartz. Is that possible in a single step, or do I need to introduce an intermediate worker (experienced charcoal burner) to first require experience, then become master by getting the new tool?

No, when a worker gains the required experience they transform into the upgraded type immediately, and an intermediate worker type sounds a bit overkill to me. Why not make a firestone the tool for a basic charcoal burner and add a few basic charcoal burners or firestones to the starting conditions?


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tothxa
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Posted at: 2023-09-18, 01:36

I added quartz. Most tools (the sharp ones) use that instead of granite. Not used it for dresses/armour, because dressmakery already has many inputs, and I don't think it would fit well.

I also rearranged the armours in the warelist of Amazons and moved the wooden spear to the weapons.

Starting conditions need adjusting. I've just added quartz to the "normal" ones without reducing granite, but didn't even try the minimal ones. I'd like to ask for help with determining the minimum bootstrap quantities.

I solved requiring advanced (became "selected") firestones by making them part of the buildcost of rare tree kilns.


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2023-09-19, 10:34

well my suggestion to use some flintstones for speartips was meant as a replacement for adding more gold.
Gold is already much more expensive for the Amazons.
I thought the main critics was that it is possible to train L7 without the need for mining. therefore no need for food preservers and charcoal.
therefore adding quartz that can onbly be obtained from the mountains, in a stone mine would have solved this alone from my point of view.
Furthermore it would need to expand to mineable areas as well as for the other tribes.
I could live with adding some quartz to the enhancement cost of a fortification, as well.
By this the change would be minimal with a strong effect on the needed economy, which might be enough to fix the imbalance.
I believe adding an additional requirment of 1 coal, one fish/meat and one bread to each attacj training, requirering having a food preserver and a charcoal kiln would really be sufficient. At least we should try it this way.
The current PR introduces a lot of changes requiring a lot of coal for training by requiring rations which is overdoing it in my view. And the introduction of quartz does only add complexity in the descriptions as it can be cut by stonecutters as well.

Edit. usage of quartz for furnaces would be ok as well, as it may delay start of gold production.

Edited: 2023-09-19, 10:36

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tothxa
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Posted at: 2023-09-19, 11:25

Hmm, OK, so let's make quartz be the equivalent of iron. That makes a lot of sense. (I made stonecutters produce it because of your suggestion.)

edit: done.

However, that would still only require 5 pieces of mined resources for full training without increasing the demand for gold, so I'd really like to keep the changes to 5 gold in total. (making it 7 mined) After all, all other tribes require a lot of coal too from mining and that has no other equivalent for Amazons. And, as I wrote earlier, the super strong last evade is another reason to increase its gold requirement. Also iron requires further processing, while quartz is immediately usable.

Edited: 2023-09-19, 11:57

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tothxa
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Posted at: 2023-09-19, 12:01

I've noticed one more advantage for Amazons: Both of their medium buildings use much less material than other tribes. I think I'll increase their costs too.


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2023-09-19, 12:15

tothxa wrote:

Hmm, OK, so let's make quartz be the equivalent of iron. That makes a lot of sense. (I made stonecutters produce it because of your suggestion.)

edit: done.

However, that would still only require 5 pieces of mined resources for full training without increasing the demand for gold, so I'd really like to keep the changes to 5 gold in total. (making it 7 mined) After all, all other tribes require a lot of coal too from mining and that has no other equivalent for Amazons. And, as I wrote earlier, the super strong last evade is another reason to increase its gold requirement. Also iron requires further processing, while quartz is immediately usable.

well cost of a training step depends on the needed economy and the total amount of wares to be invested. For Amazons the part of finding mountains with mineable ressources was intentioanlly reduced but with my suggestion it increases. However mining is still very expensive for Amazons in comparison because to produce one gold you need 2 coal (furnace and ration) which is 12 logs, 7 water (5 to mine 2 for bread), one cassava root, one fish/meat which is 21 wares.
Barbarians will only need 2 meat (one to mine coal and one to mine gold).
So I really think all gold requiring steps are expensive enough already.


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2023-09-19, 12:52

tothxa wrote:

I've noticed one more advantage for Amazons: Both of their medium buildings use much less material than other tribes. I think I'll increase their costs too.

Agreed. Adding 2 Ironwood to the dwelling should be ok. I think the tower is already ok as it has only conquer 8 as the dwelling too. Maybe adding a quartz to the observation tower might be a good idea as well.


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2023-09-19, 13:02

tothxa wrote:

Hmm, OK, so let's make quartz be the equivalent of iron. That makes a lot of sense. (I made stonecutters produce it because of your suggestion.)

edit: done.

Well I did not intent to make it the equivalentof iron for all tools and as a general build material. I really just meant to add it to the cases I mentioned.
By this all other additions like rare kilns are being superfluous imho.
Amazons were designed a tribe with not that much buildings but with requiring more of each type.

There real advantage why they were chosen by some players are that they did have rush capabilities which are widely reduced with my suggested change.
I believe we should make the change the less intrusive and complex as it could be.


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tothxa
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Posted at: 2023-09-19, 13:11

hessenfarmer wrote:

However mining is still very expensive for Amazons in comparison because to produce one gold you need 2 coal (furnace and ration) which is 12 logs, 7 water (5 to mine 2 for bread), one cassava root, one fish/meat which is 21 wares.
Barbarians will only need 2 meat (one to mine coal and one to mine gold).
So I really think all gold requiring steps are expensive enough already.

You should also consider all the iron that Amazons don't need before it comes to needing gold in the first place, as well as all the coal that is used by the various armour and weapon smithies of other tribes, but not Amazons.

Also, 1 raw food item is only enough to mine 1/3 of the available gold for Barbarians (1/2 for Empire and Frisians IIRC), so the costs of all mine depths should be averaged too.

I'll try to do a bigger assesment, but that'll take time.


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