Currently Online

Latest Posts

Topic: Seafaring

Nasenbaer
Avatar
Joined: 2009-02-21, 18:17
Posts: 829
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Location: Germany
Posted at: 2012-11-14, 09:30

jepp, the soldier feature is planned - both for the ports and for the headquarters, as both should have a way to control the number of stationed soldier defence. I even thought that feature was already linked on the seafaring blueprint, but it seems the blueprint needs some updating... anyways it is planned :).

Generally I agree with you on the rowboat feature. But this has a lower priority than the seafaring feature and thus has not been started or even been discussed until the end.

The more I think about it, the more I believe we should separate the rowboat feature from the seafaring discussion. From source code side of view it has nothing to do with seafaring and could be implemented totally independent from it. The only place where it meets seafaring is the shipyard, but that building is already completely implemented in current trunk and does not need many patches for the completion of the seafaring feature, so... jepp separarting both features should be fine...


Top Quote
Mendossa
Joined: 2011-05-18, 03:52
Posts: 9
Ranking
Pry about Widelands
Location: Australia
Posted at: 2012-11-14, 12:02

Great news. Looking forward to the update, when it's implemented face-wink.png

One other thing, regarding the shipyard ... Is it possible to choose the number of ships the shipyard produces? If you forget to press the STOP button, then the shipyard keeps on producing ships!


Top Quote
simplypeachy
Joined: 2009-04-23, 12:42
Posts: 98
Ranking
Likes to be here
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted at: 2012-11-14, 14:08

Mendossa wrote: Great news. Looking forward to the update, when it's implemented One other thing, regarding the shipyard ... Is it possible to choose the number of ships the shipyard produces? If you forget to press the STOP button, then the shipyard keeps on producing ships!

Maybe there could be a "ships" economy target?


I need less fish :-(
Update: I definitely need less fish :-((
_aD on IRC

Top Quote
Nasenbaer
Avatar
Joined: 2009-02-21, 18:17
Posts: 829
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Location: Germany
Posted at: 2012-11-14, 14:35

simplypeachy wrote:

Mendossa wrote: Great news. Looking forward to the update, when it's implemented One other thing, regarding the shipyard ... Is it possible to choose the number of ships the shipyard produces? If you forget to press the STOP button, then the shipyard keeps on producing ships!

Maybe there could be a "ships" economy target?

Sounds like a possible way, but maybe it would be even better to set a target per ocean... but I am not sure what the best way would be


Top Quote
Mendossa
Joined: 2011-05-18, 03:52
Posts: 9
Ranking
Pry about Widelands
Location: Australia
Posted at: 2012-11-15, 09:30

How about a set number of ships for each habour built? Like for every harbour 1 or 2 ships. That should be then more than enough ...


Top Quote
Nasenbaer
Avatar
Joined: 2009-02-21, 18:17
Posts: 829
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Location: Germany
Posted at: 2012-11-15, 09:47

Mendossa wrote: How about a set number of ships for each habour built? Like for every harbour 1 or 2 ships. That should be then more than enough ...

I disagree, because:

  1. this would mean, that you are unable to build ships as long as you have not finished your first port building. In all games with seafaring I played until now, I produced ships before the port was ready and for me this was a pretty good strategy.
  2. the number of needed ships is definitely depending on the length of the route between two ports, as well as the number of wares being transported between those ports.

Top Quote
Mendossa
Joined: 2011-05-18, 03:52
Posts: 9
Ranking
Pry about Widelands
Location: Australia
Posted at: 2012-11-15, 13:35

Nasenbaer wrote:

I disagree, because:

this would mean, that you are unable to build ships as long as you have not finished your first port building. In all games with seafaring I played until now, I produced ships before the port was ready and for me this was a pretty good strategy. the number of needed ships is definitely depending on the length of the route between two ports, as well as the number of wares being transported between those ports.

Ok, I agree with you. I guess it depends then on your personal strategy. I do it the opposite way ... Maybe the compromise is that you could choose within the shipyard building the number of ships you would like to have. What about that?


Top Quote
Nasenbaer
Avatar
Joined: 2009-02-21, 18:17
Posts: 829
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Location: Germany
Posted at: 2012-11-16, 15:48

I see your point, but don't see a reason why it would be better to handle the ships per shipyard than handling the number of ships per economy or per ocean.

Anyway I guess I see things different, because of the source code side of view, but well, it is not a good style to base a discussion upon source code ;). A "this would not work with our current source code design"-argument is of course valid, but if there is a good reason to change the design of a feature in the source code, this should not be a blocker... so give us some reasons :)!

So here is my view on this:

  • At the moment the ships are managed in automatically generated fleets. Those fleets consist of all ships that can reach each other as well as all ports that can be reached by those ships. Because of this there are no ships dedicated to a route or a port. The fleet decides where a ship is needed the most and sends it to that port.
  • Shipyards can produce ships for different not connected oceans. If a shipyard stands between one or more oceans, the shipbuilder will decide himself inside which ocean he builds the next ship. So if you need ships in one ocean, but not in another it would be vise to be able to set the number of ships per ocean, not per shipyard.

But as I wrote, that's the view from within the current source code. If you have some good reasons, why we should change this behaviour... face-smile.png

Cheers Nasenbaer


Top Quote
Adamant
Joined: 2012-10-11, 16:21
Posts: 180
Ranking
Widelands-Forum-Junkie
Location: Alemania
Posted at: 2012-12-15, 13:44

A Ship is a Ship is a Ship. I like specialized Types of Ships like FishingBoat etc but a generic Type as well is rather usefull. If a LandingShip moves it Land it could perhaps transform in a special WareHouse-Type but should not require a Harbort. (brief noted: union of different Types units (unit/bob), building (military_site,ware_house,production_site,..) to get all Features avaiable for concerned GameObjects). Harborts may have a Name that Ships could directed to Destinations by Ports from a List. I would like if Ships can have a Explore-Mode to reveal the Map. I would like to see Consumables for the Ships like Food and Water for the Crew. I would like to see Crew-Units (Captain, Navigator,Sculler). I would like to use Ships to exchange Goods with other Tribes. Even if Economy of different Tribes may be different the Goods could be identical instead (partially) equivalent. I like that Ships shal get a Unit-Interface (direct Instruction for Destination) and would like to hav.e it also for other Units like Lumberer ("lumber THIS tree!" etc. even they return into automode after Execution/Release). For Economy I would like to define Trade-Routes and then assign Ships to independent defined Routes. I did enable Ship-Construction. I like Amount of Consume of Goods for Construction and ConstructionTime. I found that Instruction was disabled due to there is any minor but fatal Bug in the Code. Additionally, as long as the minor Bug wasn't identified alternatively, I suggest more Modes for different UseCases. With ExploreMode the Map can get revealed. With named Ports Ships can used for Transport-Issues. If the Ship can instructed to land at closest Land "on lts Way" the Ship could interrupt its ExploreMode. A special Country-ExploreMode (clockwise/reverse) could reveal the CoastLine. However, it's possible to define different Explore-Objectives/Priorities (remove black Spots, find this/that). If the Ship can get broken by Storm and Waves it could also have Material for Repairing. I found a special HQ-Type for a crashed Ship. Could Storm or Navigation cause that this Building-Type could get generic for different Tribes their Ships. I don't like the Idea for a special Colony-Ship but a Ship should for Colonization have to have the necesseary Resources.

I don't like the Implementation of Harborts. I found that I can't build on Beach a Port. I changed a Map to GrassLand and placed an Enabler for Port-Buidling (placed a blue Port). Then I found that the Port (Image) build a strange SandBox filled with best BeachSand. I prefer If there is a Way for TerraForming to change Terrain of the CoastLine into QuaWall.

Some Point for the Core-Engine: The TriAngles build a closed Surface. Of Course the Surface have to be closed. So neighbord TriAngles can share Height of common Points (and probably do). If we break in here and enable TriAngles to have individual Height for all 3 Corners independent from neighbored TriAngles we could create Escarpements and thus get more Fredom for Design of the Map. HERE that Feature would be usefull or even necessary to lift the Terrain from the SeaLevel. When we created a QuayWall we got effective already a Harbort. We may want to place any Kind of WareHouse neigbored as Buffer for Goods for fast loading/unloading. The MainAdvantage of the QuayWall is that a Ship with a Lot of FloatationDepth can land there. Any Kind of Crane could speed up the LoadingIssues but neither Crane nor WareHouse should be neccessary to utilize Ships by going to Land but just advantage their Utilization by Speed&Comfort.

For Ships I miss Wather (Storm&Waves). I don't like the Idea of a global Direction of Wind everywhere (all Ships get Wind from same Direction) but an Implementation of Whirls and let multiple Whirls move over the Map. Whirls may overlay and the effective WindDirection is the Addition of their WindVectors. I wonder always when SailShips can move against the Wind (resp the Ships can drive in any Direction). Where is the ReverseGear? For Observation of WindDirection it's useful if there are (at least sometimes to understand the Meaning of WindDirection) Clouds in the Sky resp for Ships a local Wind-Arrow. There exist a Way to drive into the Direction where the Wind comes from: My Dictionary translate it with "to beat the Wind". More descriptive is the Expression "to cross against the Wind". Without a Fin/Keel a Ship can't cross against the Wind. The Idea of that Maneuver is that a Ship (with a Fin/Keel) can sailwards to the Wind. Eg. Wind comes from West the Ship can drive South or North. The better the Leading by the Fin/Keel is the lesser the Wind can push the Ship orthogonal to its longitudinal Axis. If the Fin/Keel is effective enough the Ship can even drive into a Direction >90° afar from the WindDrirection. That means (partially) sailing (a little) against the Wind. By ZigZagCourse against the Wind a Ship can effectively drive against the Wind - but not directly. I would like to see Wind and Waves in the Game due to they would increase the Advanture-Level of the Game significantly. With Consumbales for the Crew its Range gets effectivle limited as it have to enter Land to get fresh Water and Food. With Material and Tools it could partially repair its Damages (for a Mast it should go Land to get a Trunk) resp. create a Colony. Multiple Pennies from me.


Ivan the Terrible is dead .. Genghis Khan is dead .. and I do not feel well, too.

Top Quote
Nasenbaer
Avatar
Joined: 2009-02-21, 18:17
Posts: 829
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Location: Germany
Posted at: 2012-12-15, 14:23

First of all thank you for your long post Adamant.

However please try to seperate the different issues you want to speak about the next time. Your post is very hard to read and I am not yet sure whether I understood everything you posted.

In general my answer on your ideas are the "inofficial Widelands design guidelines" (guidelines, which most of the developers agreed on in the last year and which describe how Widelands should behave and look like):

  • Widelands is already complex. So keep new features simple!
  • Widelands is a game placed somewhere between strategic board games and computer economy simulations. It is not meant to look or behave like the real world. (In case it was like the real world, it would definitely be unplayable face-wink.png )
  • The transportation of goods is decided by the game, players can only influence the calculation by the placement of streets and buildings and through the setting of priorities for ware demands (construction. and productionsites) or store (warehouses).
  • Maps are static during a game. A player can harvest wood, build buildings, etc, but the height as well as the terrain has to stay the way it is.
  • Keep military aspects as small as possible

Those guidelines are just that - "guidelines" - we already implemented some features, which were partly against one or more of those guidelines. However those features are the ones of the game that lead to the biggest discussions and some lead to new discussions on and on (e.g. the natural tree cycle).

Keeping that in mind, I may not and do not want to decide about the features you suggest at the moment, but I doubt that most of them will ever be implemented, sorry.

But well, let's see how seafaring evolves. With a bit of luck there will be some changes and improvements in the next time.

Edited: 2012-12-15, 14:27
Top Quote