# Topic: Some Details in Balancing

 the-x Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23 Posts: 639 One Elder of Players Posted at: 2020-10-06, 09:27 They are only Details, but help a lot giving more balance: The cheapest axe (stage 0-1) consumes also identical resources than the ax_battle: `````` produce_ax_sharp = { -- time total: 57 + 3.6 "consume=coal iron:2", produce_ax_battle = { -- time total: 57 + 3.6 "consume=coal gold iron:2", `````` I suggest lowering the cost of iron for the lowest axe by 1 wilst highering the cost of the ax battle in iron by 1. It's not much to do, cause the other costs seems mostly fairly, optionally time total could be adjusted. - As always this can be done for all four tribes Why do we need that: 1. it gives the game a sence of fairness when higher upgrades are more costly than cheaper ones. Remember we are talking about ax_sharp and ax_battle. 2. if they cost nearly the same the beginning is to hard. 3. Compared to the raise in values the costly ax_battle is much cheaper than the as_sharp which should be logical vice versa - early upgrades should be cheap whilst later upgrades should be expensive. Top Quote the-x Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23 Posts: 639 One Elder of Players Posted at: 2020-10-06, 09:34 The other thing are militarysites. If we take a look at castle (Atlanteans) vs Fortress (Barbarians) we see that the castle can have 12 soldiers whilst the fortress can only have 8. If you build a Barbarian citadel the cost is a lot higher than the Atlantean. It should be vice versa as Barbarian soldiers are weaker than Atlantean. Guardhouse Atlantean has 7 soldiers whilst Barbarian barrier has 5 soldiers. Barbarian soldiers are weaker than Atlantean. I would suggest to set it easily vice versa or at least the same level. Atlantean Tower has an immense vision rate and is cheap whilst barbarian tower has a low vision rate and is expensive. Top Quote the-x Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23 Posts: 639 One Elder of Players Posted at: 2020-10-06, 09:37 Barbarian Tower: vision_range = 17, buildcost = { blackwood = 7, log = 1, granite = 4 - Atlantean Tower: vision_range = 21, buildcost = { log = 2, planks = 3, granite = 4, spidercloth = 1 Top Quote the-x Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23 Posts: 639 One Elder of Players Posted at: 2020-10-06, 09:41 Trainingssite algorothms also make the low upgrades expensive whilst making the high upgrades cheap. In my opinion this should be vice versa. `````` upgrade_soldier_attack_0 = { `````` consumes as much food and time as `````` upgrade_soldier_attack_4 = { `````` Top Quote the-x Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23 Posts: 639 One Elder of Players Posted at: 2020-10-06, 09:51 My result for this: double the sleeping time for each stage higher (important) or have "consume=ax_sharp fish,meat barbarians_bread" to "consume=ax_sharp fish,meat,barbarians_bread" for the first whilst "consume=ax_warriors fish,meat barbarians_bread:2" to "consume=ax_warriors fish,meat:2 barbarians_bread:4" for the fourth stage (optional). Optional lower sleepy time so that trainingssites kick soldiers faster and we dont have to wait very long for the next soldier or kick them by ourselves for every single soldier. All in all the most important thing to have a nearly balance is that ax_battle should be more expensive and consume more coal or iron or gold whilst the lowest ax_sharp should be not so expensive and consume lower resources. Top Quote Marie7 Joined: 2020-09-29, 14:28 Posts: 11 Pry about Widelands Posted at: 2020-10-15, 18:25 Why do we need that: 1. it gives the game a sence of fairness when higher upgrades are more costly than cheaper ones. Remember we are talking about ax_sharp and ax_battle. 2. if they cost nearly the same the beginning is to hard. 3. Compared to the raise in values the costly ax_battle is much cheaper than the as_sharp which should be logical vice versa - early upgrades should be cheap whilst later upgrades should be expensive. +1 I definitely support the Idea. There are a lot of changes from build 20 to build 21 but this seems to me the most important one Top Quote Marie7 Joined: 2020-09-29, 14:28 Posts: 11 Pry about Widelands Posted at: 2020-10-15, 18:27 the-x wrote: Guardhouse Atlantean has 7 soldiers whilst Barbarian barrier has 5 soldiers. Barbarian soldiers are weaker than Atlantean. I would suggest to set it easily vice versa or at least the same level. Atlantean Tower has an immense vision rate and is cheap whilst barbarian tower has a low vision rate and is expensive. Imo they should be same strong Top Quote GunChleoc Joined: 2013-10-07, 15:56 Posts: 3282 One Elder of Players Location: RenderedRect Posted at: 2020-10-15, 20:05 The cheapest axe (stage 0-1) consumes also identical resources than the ax_battle: No it doesn't. The current values are: Ax: `"consume=coal iron",` Battle Ax: `"consume=coal gold iron:2",` Your suggestion also doesn't make this identical, so I don't understand what you mean. I also don't think it matters if the individual ware is cheaper or not - the important thing for balancing here is the overall training costs for the soldier at each level. Busy indexing nil values Top Quote the-x Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23 Posts: 639 One Elder of Players Posted at: 2020-10-15, 20:54 GunChleoc wrote: The cheapest axe (stage 0-1) consumes also identical resources than the ax_battle: No it doesn't. The current values are: Ax: `"consume=coal iron",` Yes, but this ax goes to the barracks - so it means that you cant use it for Training Axe for the first stage consumes "consume=coal 2 iron" Battle Ax: `"consume=coal gold iron:2",` Since the increase in attack value as well as combined with a 220 healing rate in fortresses this is unbalanced. Your suggestion also doesn't make this identical, so I don't understand what you mean. The balance between the tribes, Atlanteans upgrade 1 costs one iron less and has 1 less stage to maximum (Barbarians have 5 upgrades and Atlanteans 4) Costs should be rising for later stages Im really not saying balance is bad so dont get me wrong, in buildings balance is excellent, but for combat there is a macrobalance needed. In other words, current situation is that upgrades which make a lot in potential (strengh of heroes) are cheap whilst the first upgrades are in comparison expensive and this leads to strange game situations. I wanted to know who is looking for macro balance and which changes are made. Top Quote the-x Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23 Posts: 639 One Elder of Players Posted at: 2020-10-16, 04:34 To understand the problem more intensively, we take a closer look into code. Most of Barbarian Axes cost exactly the same amount and there is no increase. `````` produce_ax_broad = { -- TRANSLATORS: Completed/Skipped/Did not start forging a broad ax because ... descname = _"forging a broad ax", actions = { -- time total: 57 + 3.6 "return=skipped unless economy needs ax_broad", "consume=coal:2 iron:2", "sleep=26000", "playsound=sound/smiths/smith 192", "animate=working 22000", "playsound=sound/smiths/sharpening 120", "sleep=9000", "produce=ax_broad" } }, produce_ax_bronze = { -- TRANSLATORS: Completed/Skipped/Did not start forging a bronze ax because ... descname = _"forging a bronze ax", actions = { -- time total: 57 + 3.6 "return=skipped unless economy needs ax_bronze", "consume=coal:2 iron:2", "sleep=26000", "playsound=sound/smiths/smith 192", "animate=working 22000", "playsound=sound/smiths/sharpening 120", "sleep=9000", "produce=ax_bronze" } }, produce_ax_battle = { -- TRANSLATORS: Completed/Skipped/Did not start forging a battle ax because ... descname = _"forging a battle ax", actions = { -- time total: 57 + 3.6 "return=skipped unless economy needs ax_battle", "consume=coal gold iron:2", "sleep=26000", "playsound=sound/smiths/smith 192", "animate=working 22000", "playsound=sound/smiths/sharpening 120", "sleep=9000", "produce=ax_battle" } `````` Mathematically there is no logic behind it and in gameplay it doesnt make any sence. Therefore I really support changing it to the following:`````` "consume=coal", "consume=coal iron", "consume=coal:2 iron:2", "consume=coal:2 gold:3 iron:2", "consume=coal:3 gold:3 iron:4", `````` For Atlanteans: Tridents `````` "consume=iron coal", "consume=iron coal:2 planks", "consume=iron:3 coal:2 planks gold", "consume=iron:3 coal:2 planks:3 gold:4", `````` For Empire: `````` "consume=coal iron", "consume=coal:2 iron planks", "consume=coal:2 gold iron:3 planks", "consume=coal:2 gold:3 iron:2 planks:3", `````` For Frisians since they are the newest tribe the balance is already working and balanced because they have 2 circles and are definitely weaker than the other 3 tribes atm Edited: 2020-10-16, 04:53 Top Quote