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Topic: Fair and Balanced Start

the-x
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Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23
Posts: 634
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One Elder of Players
Posted at: 2020-09-21, 09:23

Finally we made a new step to have balanced tribes, for multiplayer you will now see players choosing barbarians, frisians or even the Imperium. The last years in Tournaments 80% of the players played Atlantean and in every pro match you had to take Atlantean cause they were quite strong overpowered.

Please copy these two new strating conditions for every tribe. The first is "Headquarters" for a fair and balanced game between the tribes, you can also choose "Random" now for tribes and the second of every tribe is "Struggling Outpost" for a 2/3 as strong balanced start which gives pro players a challenge.

-

Atlanteans

- 1. Headquarters Start

-- =======================================================================
--              Headquarters Starting Conditions for Atlanteans
-- =======================================================================

include "scripting/infrastructure.lua"

set_textdomain("tribes")

init = {
   -- TRANSLATORS: This is the name of a starting condition
   descname = _ "Headquarters",
   -- TRANSLATORS: This is the tooltip for the "Headquarters" starting condition
   tooltip = _"Start the game with your headquarters only",
   func =  function(plr, shared_in_start)

   local sf = wl.Game().map.player_slots[plr.number].starting_field
   if shared_in_start then
      sf = shared_in_start
   else
      plr:allow_workers("all")
   end

   prefilled_buildings(plr, { "atlanteans_headquarters", sf.x, sf.y,
      wares = {
         diamond = 8,
         iron_ore = 5,
         quartz = 8,
         granite = 50,
         spider_silk = 16,
         log = 32,
         coal = 12,
         gold = 4,
         gold_thread = 6,
         iron = 6,
         planks = 45,
         spidercloth = 8,
         blackroot = 5,
         blackroot_flour = 12,
         atlanteans_bread = 8,
         corn = 5,
         cornmeal = 12,
         fish = 3,
         meat = 3,
         smoked_fish = 6,
         smoked_meat = 6,
         water = 12,
         bread_paddle = 6,
         buckets = 3,
         fire_tongs = 6,
         fishing_net = 4,
         hammer = 11,
         hunting_bow = 1,
         milking_tongs = 2,
         hook_pole = 6,
         pick = 8,
         saw = 6,
         scythe = 4,
         shovel = 9,
         tabard = 5,
         trident_light = 5,
      },
      workers = {
         atlanteans_armorsmith = 1,
         atlanteans_blackroot_farmer = 2,
         atlanteans_builder = 10,
         atlanteans_charcoal_burner = 1,
         atlanteans_carrier = 40,
         atlanteans_fishbreeder = 1,
         atlanteans_geologist = 4,
         atlanteans_miner = 5,
         atlanteans_sawyer = 2,
         atlanteans_stonecutter = 2,
         atlanteans_toolsmith = 2,
         atlanteans_trainer = 5,
         atlanteans_weaponsmith = 3,
         atlanteans_woodcutter = 3,
         atlanteans_horse = 5,
      },
      soldiers = {
         [{0,0,0,0}] = 32,
      }
   })
end
}

return init


- 2. Struggling Outpost Start

-- =======================================================================
--              Hardcore Starting Conditions for Atlanteans
-- =======================================================================

include "scripting/infrastructure.lua"

set_textdomain("tribes")

init = {
   -- TRANSLATORS: This is the name of a starting condition
   descname = _ "Struggling Outpost",
   -- TRANSLATORS: This is the tooltip for the "Hardcore" starting condition
   tooltip = _"Start the game with just your headquarters and very few wares for bootstrapping an economy. Warning: the AI can't successfully start from this",
   func =  function(player, shared_in_start)

   local sf = wl.Game().map.player_slots[player.number].starting_field
   if shared_in_start then
      sf = shared_in_start
   else
      player:allow_workers("all")
   end

   prefilled_buildings(player, { "atlanteans_headquarters", sf.x, sf.y,
      wares = {
         diamond = 4,
         iron_ore = 5,
         quartz = 4,
         granite = 30,
         spider_silk = 12,
         log = 16,
         coal = 12,
         gold = 4,
         gold_thread = 6,
         iron = 6,
         planks = 30,
         spidercloth = 4,
         blackroot = 5,
         blackroot_flour = 12,
         atlanteans_bread = 8,
         corn = 5,
         cornmeal = 12,
         fish = 3,
         meat = 3,
         smoked_fish = 6,
         smoked_meat = 6,
         water = 12,
         bread_paddle = 3,
         buckets = 3,
         fire_tongs = 3,
         fishing_net = 2,
         hammer = 11,
         hunting_bow = 1,
         milking_tongs = 2,
         hook_pole = 3,
         pick = 6,
         saw = 3,
         scythe = 4,
         shovel = 9,
         tabard = 5,
         trident_light = 5,
      },
      workers = {
         atlanteans_armorsmith = 1,
         atlanteans_blackroot_farmer = 2,
         atlanteans_builder = 10,
         atlanteans_charcoal_burner = 1,
         atlanteans_carrier = 40,
         atlanteans_fishbreeder = 1,
         atlanteans_geologist = 4,
         atlanteans_miner = 1,
         atlanteans_sawyer = 2,
         atlanteans_stonecutter = 2,
         atlanteans_toolsmith = 2,
         atlanteans_trainer = 4,
         atlanteans_weaponsmith = 2,
         atlanteans_woodcutter = 3,
         atlanteans_horse = 5,
      },
      soldiers = {
         [{0,0,0,0}] = 20,
      }
   })
end
}

return init

Frisians

- 1. Headquarters Start

-- =======================================================================
--                 Start conditions for Headquarters
-- =======================================================================

include "scripting/infrastructure.lua"

set_textdomain("tribes")

init = {
   -- TRANSLATORS: This is the name of a starting condition
   descname = _ "Headquarters",
   -- TRANSLATORS: This is the tooltip for the "Headquarters" starting condition
   tooltip = _"Start the game with your headquarters only",
   func = function(player, shared_in_start)

   local sf = wl.Game().map.player_slots[player.number].starting_field
   if shared_in_start then
      sf = shared_in_start
   else
      player:allow_workers("all")
   end

   hq = prefilled_buildings(player, { "frisians_headquarters", sf.x, sf.y,
      wares = {
         log = 40,
         granite = 50,
         reed = 50,
         brick = 80,
         clay = 30,
         water = 10,
         fish = 10,
         meat = 10,
         fruit = 10,
         barley = 5,
         ration = 24,
         honey = 10,
         smoked_meat = 5,
         smoked_fish = 5,
         mead = 5,
         meal = 2,
         coal = 38,
         iron = 18,
         gold = 18,
         iron_ore = 8,
         bread_frisians = 28,
         honey_bread = 8,
         beer = 16,
         cloth = 5,
         fur = 10,
         fur_garment = 5,
         sword_short = 5,
         hammer = 10,
         fire_tongs = 6,
         bread_paddle = 3,
         kitchen_tools = 6,
         felling_ax = 3,
         needles = 1,
         basket = 3,
         pick = 5,
         shovel = 9,
         scythe = 3,
         hunting_spear = 3,
         fishing_net = 3,
      },
      workers = {
         frisians_blacksmith = 3,
         frisians_baker = 3,
         frisians_brewer = 3,
         frisians_builder = 10,
         frisians_charcoal_burner = 1,
         frisians_claydigger = 2,
         frisians_brickmaker = 2,
         frisians_carrier = 40,
         frisians_reed_farmer = 2,
         frisians_berry_farmer = 3,
         frisians_fruit_collector = 2,
         frisians_farmer = 3,
         frisians_landlady = 1,
         frisians_smoker = 3,
         frisians_geologist = 4,
         frisians_woodcutter = 3,
         frisians_beekeeper = 1,
         frisians_miner = 4,
         frisians_miner_master = 2,
         frisians_forester = 2,
         frisians_stonemason = 2,
         frisians_reindeer = 5,
         frisians_trainer = 5,
         frisians_seamstress_master = 1,
      },
      soldiers = {
         [{0,0,0,0}] = 45,
      }
   })
end
}

return init

- 2. Struggling Outpost Start

-- =======================================================================
--                Hardcore Starting conditions for Frisians
-- =======================================================================

include "scripting/infrastructure.lua"

set_textdomain("tribes")

return {
   -- TRANSLATORS: This is the name of a starting condition
   descname = _ "Struggling Outpost",
   -- TRANSLATORS: This is the tooltip for the "Hardcore" starting condition
   tooltip = _"Start the game with just your headquarters and very few wares for bootstrapping an economy. Warning: the AI can't successfully start from this",
   func =  function(player, shared_in_start)

   local sf = wl.Game().map.player_slots[player.number].starting_field

   if shared_in_start then
      sf = shared_in_start
   else
      player:allow_workers("all")
   end

   prefilled_buildings(player, { "frisians_headquarters", sf.x, sf.y,
      wares = {
         log = 20,
         granite = 20,
         reed = 20,
         brick = 40,
         clay = 12,
         water = 4,
         fish = 4,
         meat = 4,
         fruit = 4,
         barley = 5,
         ration = 8,
         honey = 6,
         smoked_meat = 3,
         smoked_fish = 3,
         mead = 5,
         meal = 2,
         coal = 18,
         iron = 8,
         gold = 8,
         iron_ore = 8,
         bread_frisians = 12,
         honey_bread = 3,
         beer = 4,
         cloth = 5,
         fur = 10,
         fur_garment = 5,
         sword_short = 5,
         hammer = 6,
         fire_tongs = 3,
         bread_paddle = 2,
         kitchen_tools = 3,
         felling_ax = 3,
         needles = 1,
         basket = 3,
         pick = 3,
         shovel = 6,
         scythe = 3,
         hunting_spear = 1,
         fishing_net = 2,
      },
      workers = {
         frisians_blacksmith = 1,
         frisians_baker = 1,
         frisians_brewer = 1,
         frisians_builder = 6,
         frisians_charcoal_burner = 1,
         frisians_claydigger = 2,
         frisians_brickmaker = 1,
         frisians_carrier = 40,
         frisians_reed_farmer = 2,
         frisians_berry_farmer = 2,
         frisians_fruit_collector = 2,
         frisians_farmer = 1,
         frisians_landlady = 1,
         frisians_smoker = 3,
         frisians_geologist = 4,
         frisians_woodcutter = 3,
         frisians_beekeeper = 1,
         frisians_miner = 2,
         frisians_miner_master = 2,
         frisians_forester = 2,
         frisians_stonemason = 2,
         frisians_reindeer = 5,
         frisians_trainer = 2,
         frisians_seamstress_master = 1,
      },
      soldiers = {
         [{0,0,0,0}] = 30,
      }
   })
end
}

Barbarians:

- 1. Headquarters Start

-- =======================================================================
--                 Start conditions for Headquarters
-- =======================================================================

include "scripting/infrastructure.lua"

set_textdomain("tribes")

init = {
   -- TRANSLATORS: This is the name of a starting condition
   descname = _ "Headquarters",
   -- TRANSLATORS: This is the tooltip for the "Headquarters" starting condition
   tooltip = _"Start the game with your headquarters only",
   func = function(player, shared_in_start)

   local sf = wl.Game().map.player_slots[player.number].starting_field
   if shared_in_start then
      sf = shared_in_start
   else
      player:allow_workers("all")
   end

   hq = prefilled_buildings(player, { "barbarians_headquarters", sf.x, sf.y,
      wares = {
         ax = 5,
         bread_paddle = 6,
         blackwood = 32,
         cloth = 5,
         coal = 12,
         felling_ax = 4,
         fire_tongs = 6,
         fish = 6,
         fishing_rod = 2,
         gold = 4,
         grout = 12,
         hammer = 12,
         hunting_spear = 3,
         iron = 12,
         iron_ore = 5,
         kitchen_tools = 6,
         meal = 4,
         meat = 6,
         pick = 8,
         barbarians_bread = 8,
         ration = 12,
         granite = 40,
         scythe = 6,
         shovel = 4,
         snack = 3,
         reed = 24,
         log = 80,
      },
      workers = {
         barbarians_blacksmith = 4,
         barbarians_brewer = 2,
         barbarians_builder = 10,
         barbarians_charcoal_burner = 1,
         barbarians_carrier = 40,
         barbarians_gardener = 1,
         barbarians_geologist = 4,
         barbarians_lime_burner = 2,
         barbarians_lumberjack = 3,
         barbarians_miner = 6,
         barbarians_miner_master = 6,
         barbarians_ranger = 1,
         barbarians_stonemason = 2,
         barbarians_trainer = 5,
         barbarians_ox = 5,
      },
      soldiers = {
         [{0,0,0,0}] = 58,
      }
   })
end
}

return init

- 2. Struggling Outpost Start

-- =======================================================================
--                 Hardcore Starting conditions for Barbarians
-- =======================================================================

include "scripting/infrastructure.lua"

set_textdomain("tribes")

init = {
   -- TRANSLATORS: This is the name of a starting condition
   descname = _ "Struggling Outpost",
   -- TRANSLATORS: This is the tooltip for the "Hardcore" starting condition
   tooltip = _"Start the game with just your headquarters and very few wares for bootstrapping an economy. Warning: the AI can't successfully start from this",
   func = function(player, shared_in_start)

   local sf = wl.Game().map.player_slots[player.number].starting_field
   if shared_in_start then
      sf = shared_in_start
   else
      player:allow_workers("all")
   end

   hq = prefilled_buildings(player, { "barbarians_headquarters", sf.x, sf.y,
      wares = {
         ax = 3,
         bread_paddle = 3,
         blackwood = 32,
         cloth = 4,
         coal = 12,
         felling_ax = 4,
         fire_tongs = 3,
         fish = 6,
         fishing_rod = 2,
         gold = 4,
         grout = 12,
         hammer = 12,
         hunting_spear = 1,
         iron = 12,
         iron_ore = 5,
         kitchen_tools = 3,
         meal = 4,
         meat = 6,
         pick = 6,
         barbarians_bread = 8,
         ration = 12,
         granite = 40,
         scythe = 6,
         shovel = 4,
         snack = 3,
         reed = 24,
         log = 60,
      },
      workers = {
         barbarians_blacksmith = 2,
         barbarians_brewer = 1,
         barbarians_builder = 10,
         barbarians_charcoal_burner = 1,
         barbarians_carrier = 40,
         barbarians_gardener = 1,
         barbarians_geologist = 4,
         barbarians_lime_burner = 1,
         barbarians_lumberjack = 3,
         barbarians_miner = 6,
         barbarians_miner_master = 6,
         barbarians_ranger = 1,
         barbarians_stonemason = 2,
         barbarians_trainer = 4,
         barbarians_ox = 5,
      },
      soldiers = {
         [{0,0,0,0}] = 42,
      }
   })
end
}

return init

Imperium:

- 1. Headquarters Start

-- =======================================================================
--                Starting conditions for Headquarters
-- =======================================================================

include "scripting/infrastructure.lua"

set_textdomain("tribes")

return {
   -- TRANSLATORS: This is the name of a starting condition
   descname = _ "Headquarters",
   -- TRANSLATORS: This is the tooltip for the "Headquarters" starting condition
   tooltip = _"Start the game with your headquarters only",
   func =  function(p, shared_in_start)

   local sf = wl.Game().map.player_slots[p.number].starting_field

   if shared_in_start then
      sf = shared_in_start
   else
      p:allow_workers("all")
   end

   prefilled_buildings(p, { "empire_headquarters", sf.x, sf.y,
      wares = {
         armor_helmet = 4,
         spear_wooden = 5,
         felling_ax = 6,
         bread_paddle = 3,
         basket = 2,
         empire_bread = 8,
         cloth = 5,
         coal = 12,
         fire_tongs = 2,
         fish = 6,
         fishing_rod = 2,
         flour = 4,
         gold = 4,
         grape = 4,
         hammer = 14,
         hunting_spear = 2,
         iron = 12,
         iron_ore = 5,
         kitchen_tools = 4,
         marble = 25,
         marble_column = 6,
         meal = 4,
         meat = 6,
         pick = 8,
         ration = 12,
         saw = 2,
         scythe = 5,
         shovel = 6,
         granite = 40,
         log = 30,
         water = 12,
         wheat = 4,
         wine = 8,
         planks = 45,
         wool = 2,
      },
      workers = {
         empire_armorsmith = 1,
         empire_brewer = 2,
         empire_builder = 10,
         empire_carrier = 40,
         empire_charcoal_burner = 1,
         empire_geologist = 4,
         empire_lumberjack = 3,
         empire_miner = 5,
         empire_stonemason = 2,
         empire_toolsmith = 2,
         empire_trainer = 5,
         empire_weaponsmith = 3,
         empire_donkey = 5,
      },
      soldiers = {
         [{0,0,0,0}] = 45,
      }
   })
end
}

- 2. Struggling Outpost Start

-- =======================================================================
--                Hardcore Starting conditions for Empire
-- =======================================================================

include "scripting/infrastructure.lua"

set_textdomain("tribes")

return {
   -- TRANSLATORS: This is the name of a starting condition
   descname = _ "Struggling Outpost",
   -- TRANSLATORS: This is the tooltip for the "Hardcore" starting condition
   tooltip = _"Start the game with just your headquarters and very few wares for bootstrapping an economy. Warning: the AI can't successfully start from this",
   func =  function(player, shared_in_start)

   local sf = wl.Game().map.player_slots[player.number].starting_field

   if shared_in_start then
      sf = shared_in_start
   else
      player:allow_workers("all")
   end

   prefilled_buildings(player, { "empire_headquarters", sf.x, sf.y,
      wares = {
         armor_helmet = 2,
         spear_wooden = 3,
         felling_ax = 3,
         bread_paddle = 3,
         basket = 2,
         empire_bread = 4,
         cloth = 4,
         coal = 8,
         fire_tongs = 3,
         fish = 4,
         fishing_rod = 2,
         flour = 4,
         gold = 4,
         grape = 4,
         hammer = 8,
         hunting_spear = 2,
         iron = 6,
         iron_ore = 4,
         kitchen_tools = 3,
         marble = 25,
         marble_column = 6,
         meal = 4,
         meat = 6,
         pick = 6,
         ration = 6,
         saw = 1,
         scythe = 5,
         shovel = 6,
         granite = 28,
         log = 20,
         water = 6,
         wheat = 4,
         wine = 8,
         planks = 28,
         wool = 2,
      },
      workers = {
         empire_armorsmith = 1,
         empire_brewer = 2,
         empire_builder = 8,
         empire_carrier = 40,
         empire_charcoal_burner = 1,
         empire_geologist = 4,
         empire_lumberjack = 3,
         empire_miner = 3,
         empire_stonemason = 1,
         empire_toolsmith = 1,
         empire_trainer = 2,
         empire_weaponsmith = 2,
         empire_donkey = 5,
      },
      soldiers = {
         [{0,0,0,0}] = 25,
      }
   })
end
}
Edited: 2020-09-27, 21:46

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the-x
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Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23
Posts: 634
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Posted at: 2020-09-21, 09:27

I put a lot of calculating work in it, especially the last two weeks with experience gained over the last two years, so hopefully we can make soon a master which includes this new start for everyone.


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Tribal-Chief
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Joined: 2018-12-09, 17:16
Posts: 60
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Posted at: 2020-09-21, 10:23

Complete rubbish.

Hardcore starts are supposed to be hardcore, you have way to many starting wares and workers which make the start easy.

Headquarters is already to easy,I have renamed is easy start for newbies, cheat mode if you have played more than once. My new HQ start has no upgraded workers, you must train them, and no trainers. Upgrading workers is set to 40 or 50. Atlantians are nerfed with only about half the starting wares and no tools.

I would also help your case if you learned how to share files so they format correctly.


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hessenfarmer
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Joined: 2014-12-11, 23:16
Posts: 1540
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Location: Bavaria
Posted at: 2020-09-21, 12:57

Well,
everybody can design its own starting conditions to use. Integrating them into the game for every one is a difference. @ the-x you asked about the possibilities currently available to do something lioke with addons. Basis for this is to leave the already implemented StartConditions untouched. So you could use whatever you like but you should give them a new name.
@ Tribal_chief
although I support your point about hardcore SC, I think HQ should be a nice and convenient SC and not something difficult. It might be hard to imagine but beginners could easily lock them up even with HQ so if you are a very beginner it is not too easy. Furthermore it doesn't help to start a discussion with the words "complete rubbish".


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the-x
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Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23
Posts: 634
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Posted at: 2020-09-21, 14:21

Tribal-Chief wrote:

Hardcore starts are supposed to be hardcore, you have way to many starting wares and workers which make the start easy.

Also in this case, stay friendly Tribal Chief ... You can only say that from a stand alone singleplayer perspective - i dont know about your experience in playing with other players?

Therefore we also have our minumum start, indeed we only have headquarter + minimum starts at the beginning. But how can you balance a game with only hardcore or mimimum whilst the other have hq, impossible indeed.


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the-x
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Posts: 634
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Posted at: 2020-09-21, 14:35

hessenfarmer wrote:

@ Tribal_chief
although I support your point about hardcore SC, I think HQ should be a nice and convenient SC and not something difficult.

Yes, thats what i thought many times, there are always some critical points in building up especially when you set your "toolsmith". If you do it in the beginning, you lose time / ressources, if you do it to late youll lack productivity. At least of smelter should be 3 at every start. Think about, 1 Atlantean Iron Mine gives iron to 5 smelter. (1 to 5)

These ideas are very well thought and surely not rubbish


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Tribal-Chief
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Posted at: 2020-09-21, 16:15

the x - who are you to tell me be to be friendly? As far as I see my remarks are not unfriendly, unless you feel attacked by honest comments. I feel attacked by players who want to make wl more military and less economic so I feel justified in my comments, if you are trying to add this rubbish to the core game. If you want it as an addon then feel free to make your game less about economy management.

For information, though you have no right to ask, I only ever play any game as single player, I see no point in any sort of multiplayer games, in fact I see very little point in other people at all.


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the-x
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Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23
Posts: 634
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Posted at: 2020-09-21, 18:58

So the conclusion would be that we add these two concepts so multiplayer will make also fun and is balanced and fair and nice to play for those who like to play?

Its simply a rule dont insult others ; )

btw. how should it be honest if you say you didnt even play a tournament game, I believe you see it kind of critics by a player who has done a lot of practical research, if that is the case just tell me how you would set the wares instead?


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WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
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Location: North of Germany
Posted at: 2020-09-21, 21:20

The conception of the-x is not good.

Edited: 2020-09-22, 10:50

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Tribal-Chief
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Posted at: 2020-09-21, 21:55

Edited by kaputtnik: Removed content because of personal attacks.

@tribal-chief: If you don't have factual arguments, don't post.

Edited: 2020-09-21, 22:19

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