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Topic: Fair and Balanced Start

WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2020-09-27, 22:15

hessenfarmer wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

Probably it's not necessary to change the headquarters that drastically - it might be sufficient to implement the changes which I've suggested in the Thread "Balancing around the tempo tournament" in order to weaken Atlanteans and make Frisians stronger. https://www.widelands.org/forum/post/32983/

It is not forgotten and I will come back to this in some time when I'll find time to implement balancing changes again.

Okay.

_Elefantenrennen wrote:

the-x wrote:

     coal = 38,
     iron = 18,
     gold = 18,

This is not fair!

I agree. For example the Frisians could then train rather quickly some supersoldiers on maps without gold, or launch several expeditions.


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blind3rdeye
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Posted at: 2020-09-28, 15:50

I do think it might be nice to have a (new) relatively balanced low-resources start. I'd like something a bit like the struggling outpost, but with with some food and raw resources to get started. So, not many starting tools; but enough basic resources that you don't have to build everything in the same sequence every time.


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the-x
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Posted at: 2020-09-28, 15:57

blind3rdeye wrote:

I'd like something a bit like the struggling outpost, but with with some food and raw resources to get started. So, not many starting tools; but enough basic resources that you don't have to build everything in the same sequence every time.

Yes, another advantaged of this might be so you have like 3-4 woodcutters its not that extremely wood building in the beginning and clicking every game


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the-x
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Posted at: 2020-09-28, 16:10

Struggling and Poor Hamlet atm are exactly the same except for tools, we have no small start

Maybe a Start below HQ, but with more than 1 woodcutter

-- ======================================================================= -- Rush Start -- =======================================================================

  wares = {
     diamond = 4,
     iron_ore = 5,
     quartz = 4,
     granite = 30,
     spider_silk = 12,


     log = 16,

Log must be reduced to think before just clicking as much you can

     coal = 12,
     gold = 4,
     gold_thread = 2,
     iron = 6,

same with gold

     planks = 30,
     spidercloth = 4,
     blackroot = 5,
     blackroot_flour = 12,
     atlanteans_bread = 8,
     corn = 5,
     cornmeal = 12,
     fish = 3,
     meat = 3,
     smoked_fish = 6,
     smoked_meat = 6,
     water = 12,
     bread_paddle = 3,
     buckets = 3,
     fire_tongs = 3,

Fire tongs are the tools that hardly miss in every start,

For fluent gameplay I would say 3 for Rush start and 5 for Economy start. Lower will cause so many problems, with mines, with building a smith, with high advantage of starting ressources whilst produced soldiers dont be trained fast enough. Whoch is a central fact at every small or medium map.

This is the only point we hardly need

     fishing_net = 2,
     hammer = 11,
     hunting_bow = 1,
     milking_tongs = 2,
     hook_pole = 3,
     pick = 6,
     saw = 2,
     scythe = 4,
     shovel = 9,
     tabard = 5,
     trident_light = 5,
  },
  workers = {
     atlanteans_armorsmith = 2,
     atlanteans_blackroot_farmer = 2,
     atlanteans_builder = 10,
     atlanteans_charcoal_burner = 1,
     atlanteans_carrier = 40,
     atlanteans_fishbreeder = 1,
     atlanteans_geologist = 4,
     atlanteans_miner = 1,
     atlanteans_sawyer = 2,

Sawyer must be set to two or 3, cause it alwys causes problems with your woodcutters. At the moment you have 10 Woodcutters, but only 1 Saw?

And yes you can time to build to build 1 Saw later but this makes many problems, like counting your woodcutters, waiting for your smith

     atlanteans_stonecutter = 2,
     atlanteans_toolsmith = 2,
     atlanteans_trainer = 4,
     atlanteans_weaponsmith = 2,
     atlanteans_woodcutter = 3,

As Blindeseye mentioned, 10 woodcutters leads to an enormous start

3 sawyer + 2 saw = 5 woodcutters

     atlanteans_horse = 5,
  },
  soldiers = {
     [{0,0,0,0}] = 20,
  }

Soldiers i dont care maybe

  • 20 for Rush

  • 35 for Headquarters

}) end }

Edited: 2020-09-28, 16:13

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the-x
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Posted at: 2020-09-28, 20:03

blind3rdeye wrote:

I do think it might be nice to have a (new) relatively balanced low-resources start.

Yes, it whould be playable with HQ and maybe one more start with a little more

  • one Rush

  • one Economy player


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blind3rdeye
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Posted at: 2020-09-29, 04:07

the-x wrote:

As Blindeseye mentioned, 10 woodcutters leads to an enormous start

I don't think I said that. I agree with it, but I don't think I said it. All I've said is that I think it would be good to have a new low-resource start, a little bit faster than struggling outpost, with some thought put into making it balanced.

Roughly speaking, I'm imagining something that starts with just 2 woodcutters and 2 builders, and 1 of all other professions; and a very small number of soldiers. However, unlike struggling outpost, it would have also have ~4 steel, ~5 iron ore, and some coal; ~10 meals worth of food, and a decent amount of building materials. The idea is that you don't have enough stuff to just launch every part of the economy at once; and you don't have enough to be highly productive right at the start... but you do have some materials that allow you to build new tools right away; and so you can choose what you think is most useful. Perhaps you just want 4 more woodcutters, right off the bat. Or perhaps you think a third builder would help more. Or maybe you want to get an extra wheat farm set up early so that you have a bit of a stockpile by the time the rest of the economy is set up.

The numbers I've putting out there are just arbitrary off the top of my head; but the point is that you don't have enough to build everything you want (unlike normal outpost starts) - but you do have enough to allow some flexibility in what you go for first (unlike struggling outpost).

Edited: 2020-09-29, 04:08

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the-x
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Posted at: 2020-09-29, 11:44

blind3rdeye wrote:

the-x wrote:

10 woodcutters leads to an enormous start

The idea is that you don't have enough stuff to just launch every part of the economy at once; and you don't have enough to be highly productive right at the start... but you do have some materials that allow you to build new tools right away; and so you can choose what you think is most useful. Perhaps you just want 4 more woodcutters, right off the bat. Or perhaps you think a third builder would help more. Or maybe you want to get an extra wheat farm set up early so that you have a bit of a stockpile by the time the rest of the economy is set up.

Exactly

This puts a lot more decision making and thinking & fun into the gameplay


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Marie7
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Joined: 2020-09-29, 14:28
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Posted at: 2020-09-29, 14:32

the-x wrote:

blind3rdeye wrote:

the-x wrote:

10 woodcutters leads to an enormous start

The idea is that you don't have enough stuff to just launch every part of the economy at once; and you don't have enough to be highly productive right at the start... but you do have some materials that allow you to build new tools right away; and so you can choose what you think is most useful. Perhaps you just want 4 more woodcutters, right off the bat. Or perhaps you think a third builder would help more. Or maybe you want to get an extra wheat farm set up early so that you have a bit of a stockpile by the time the rest of the economy is set up.

Exactly

This puts a lot more decision making and thinking & fun into the gameplay

Wow, thanks for making such an awesome game. Im enjoying it vey much and keep on collecting Ideas.


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the-x
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Posted at: 2020-09-29, 14:46

It's an open source which mean many people worked on it long time and we are all happy to have such a nice game going.

We are steadily improving the game to make it more interesting and also balanced so players will have a lot of fun in multiplayer.


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Marie7
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Posted at: 2020-09-29, 14:51

the-x wrote:

It's an open source which mean many people worked on it long time and we are all happy to have such a nice game going.

We are steadily improving the game to make it more interesting and also balanced so players will have a lot of fun in multiplayer.

I like imba games because then i win every game ^^ ^^


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