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Topic: Build 21

the-x
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Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23
Posts: 339
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Posted at: 2020-02-20, 17:45

Hours of playtesting have solved this as excellent Solutions to implement for Build 21 - Please Complete face-smile.png

  • We need to find small Improvements to make levelling the first stages cheaper and faster and on the highest levels more expensive and complicated

--> Easy to implement:

axe1: 1 coal

axe2: 1 coal + 1 iron

axe3: 3 coal + 2 iron

axe4: 3 coal + 2 iron + 1 gold

axe5: 3 coal + 5 iron + 5 gold or if possible to implement: axe5: 2 coal + 2 iron + 1 diamond

Nice wareflow

--> Execellent step by step levelling, which gives nice flows for your economy

.

  • Focus on Economy more than on military

--> Slow down fights to 1/4 --> Set moving speed of soldiers to 1/4

this reduces stress and gives more time to react and more time to watch widelands

  • Expansion might be a bit boring by building 10 barracks in a row on every medium to large map

--> radius of barrracs and towers, fortress +2

who has a better problem solution for this?

  • We must find a way that ships can be build earlier in the game

Half the cost of a harbor, harbor needs no more gold, solved the problem to wait extremly long time for 2nd harbor and the impossibility of leveling and building a harbor the same time


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Nordfriese
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Joined: 2017-01-17, 18:07
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Posted at: 2020-02-20, 18:46

axe1: 1 coal

Too illogical. How would you make a metal axe out of literally nothing except fuel?

axe4: 3 coal + 2 iron + 1 gold

axe5: 3 coal + 5 iron + 5 gold or if possible to implement: axe5: 2 coal + 2 iron + 1 diamond

Execellent step by step levelling, which gives nice flows for your economy

How would barbarians get diamonds? Might be a nice supplementary pathway when trading is implemented, but an intermediate ware used for only one pathway doesn't really make sense IMHO.

Besides, barbarians have 6 axe types…

  • Focus on Economy more than on military

--> Slow down fights to 1/4

(+1). Could be done by proportionally decreasing all attack values. But this would have to be checked very carefully as we can terribly mess up the balancing here, especially for higher levels where one hit more or less to kill the opponent makes a huge difference.

--> Set moving speed of soldiers to 1/4

Non-trivial to implement, because all mapobjects have exactly the same speed currently…

--> radius of barrracs and towers, fortress +2

+1. I'd suggest to only increase the conquer radius of one building (ideally tower), but the buildcosts should also be slightly increased. Again, might cause balancing issues.

Half the cost of a harbor

Halving would make them way too cheap, but yes it could be reduced

harbor needs no more gold

-1

solved […] the impossibility of leveling and building a harbor the same time

… which is an aspect that adds welcome complexity because it forces players to wisely prioritise (you can't have everything…)


P.S. On the one hand you want to reduce the metal costs of weapons, on the other hand you complain that many maps have too much iron and gold face-wink.png


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king_of_nowhere
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Joined: 2014-09-15, 18:35
Posts: 1526
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Posted at: 2020-02-20, 19:38

the-x wrote:

Hours of playtesting have solved this as excellent Solutions to implement for Build 21 - Please Complete face-smile.png

  • We need to find small Improvements to make levelling the first stages cheaper and faster and on the highest levels more expensive and complicated

--> Easy to implement:

axe1: 1 coal

axe2: 1 coal + 1 iron

axe3: 3 coal + 2 iron

axe4: 3 coal + 2 iron + 1 gold

axe5: 3 coal + 5 iron + 5 gold or if possible to implement: axe5: 2 coal + 2 iron + 1 diamond

-1. while the lower levels certainly need some love, such a huge difference in price means that it would become convenient to skip the last level completely. you could make 2 almost full soldiers at the price of 1, and win with numbers. i don't want to make the higher level promotions a trap.

  • Focus on Economy more than on military

--> Slow down fights to 1/4 --> Set moving speed of soldiers to 1/4

this reduces stress and gives more time to react and more time to watch widelands

-1. fights are already slow, especially when soldiers are promoted in evade and not in attack. if there is a military building with fighting on its doorstep and a few soldiers inside, slowing combat too much will just mean stalling the game. i can easily see a scenario where you can survive indefinitely by pumping up new soldiers faster than the opponent can kill them.

furthermore, it won't even fix anything. if you have early contact, you have early military clash. it will just be more annoying. because, i don't know you, but i couldn't look away while there is a big fight going on.

  • Expansion might be a bit boring by building 10 barracks in a row on every medium to large map

--> radius of barrracs and towers, fortress +2

who has a better problem solution for this?

-1 again. problem with military is fast expansion leading to early contact. in fact, if we want to decrease the military aspect of the game, I would suggest to INCREASE the cost of military buildings, to slow down expansion and thus reduce the possibility of early game attacks.

  • We must find a way that ships can be build earlier in the game

Half the cost of a harbor, harbor needs no more gold, solved the problem to wait extremly long time for 2nd harbor and the impossibility of leveling and building a harbor the same time

i think exploration is fine. i would not want to make it too cheap


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JanO
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Joined: 2015-08-02, 11:56
Posts: 120
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Posted at: 2020-02-20, 19:39

Nordfriese wrote:

axe1: 1 coal

Too illogical. How would you make a metal axe out of literally nothing except fuel?

axe4: 3 coal + 2 iron + 1 gold

axe5: 3 coal + 5 iron + 5 gold or if possible to implement: axe5: 2 coal + 2 iron + 1 diamond

Execellent step by step levelling, which gives nice flows for your economy

How would barbarians get diamonds? Might be a nice supplementary pathway when trading is implemented, but an intermediate ware used for only one pathway doesn't really make sense IMHO.

Besides, barbarians have 6 axe types…

+1 to hessenfarmer
If soldiers get a special level which depends on wares that can only be collected from other tribes (trade or bounty), then all tribes should get something like that.

  • Focus on Economy more than on military

--> Slow down fights to 1/4

(+1). Could be done by proportionally decreasing all attack values. But this would have to be checked very carefully as we can terribly mess up the balancing here, especially for higher levels where one hit more or less to kill the opponent makes a huge difference.

Only reducing speed should not affect balancing, I guess. Just because it is the same for all, like reducing or increasing default game speed.

--> Set moving speed of soldiers to 1/4

Non-trivial to implement, because all mapobjects have exactly the same speed currently…

I see individual speed for different objects a general nice-to-have for widelands. But 1/4 for soldiers might be a little bit too much. Even 1/2 would be very slow. What about soldiers on roads?


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the-x
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Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23
Posts: 339
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Posted at: 2020-02-20, 21:38

king_of_nowhere wrote:

the-x wrote:

  • Expansion might be a bit boring by building 10 barracks in a row on every medium to large map

--> radius of barrracs and towers, fortress +2

who has a better problem solution for this?

problem with military is fast expansion leading to early contact. in fact, if we want to decrease the military aspect of the game, I would suggest to INCREASE the cost of military buildings, to slow down expansion and thus reduce the possibility of early game attacks.

Yes, incresing the cost or the time that is needed to construct a military building is a solution


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the-x
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Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23
Posts: 339
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Posted at: 2020-02-20, 21:46

Nordfriese wrote:

axe1: 1 coal

Too illogical. How would you make a metal axe out of literally nothing except fuel?

axe4: 3 coal + 2 iron + 1 gold

axe5: 3 coal + 5 iron + 5 gold or if possible to implement: axe5: 2 coal + 2 iron + 1 diamond

Execellent step by step levelling, which gives nice flows for your economy

How would barbarians get diamonds? Might be a nice supplementary pathway when trading is implemented, but an intermediate ware used for only one pathway doesn't really make sense IMHO.

Yes, we can make it easily by 5% chance of existing granite fields, this is nice cause you will also have a happy moment when you find the diamond which is a good thing and makes games very exciting, cause you dont always have exactly the same game

  • Focus on Economy more than on military

--> Slow down fights to 1/4

(+1). Could be done by proportionally decreasing all attack values. But this would have to be checked very carefully as we can terribly mess up the balancing here, especially for higher levels where one hit more or less to kill the opponent makes a huge difference.

Yes. this idea is the best.

Absolutely, it will also give longer fights

+1

--> Set moving speed of soldiers to 1/4

Non-trivial to implement, because all mapobjects have exactly the same speed currently…

--> radius of barrracs and towers, fortress +2

+1. I'd suggest to only increase the conquer radius of one building (ideally tower), but the buildcosts should also be slightly increased. Again, might cause balancing issues.

Half the cost of a harbor

Halving would make them way too cheap, but yes it could be reduced

Some games or on some maps you find your first harbor and want to go to the Sea, or on some maps you really do need it fast to find Iron and so its a good way.


P.S. On the one hand you want to reduce the metal costs of weapons, on the other hand you complain that many maps have too much iron and gold face-wink.png

Well actually we dont need to reduce it, your right, its better to make the last 2 upgrades more expensive

maps dont have too much, more its like that players find it too fast, you find 3 gold spots and dont need so many tactical thoughts how to get to gold


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the-x
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Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23
Posts: 339
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Posted at: 2020-02-20, 21:52

the-x wrote:

Hours of playtesting have solved this as excellent Solutions to implement for Build 21 - Please Complete face-smile.png

  • We need to find small Improvements to make levelling the first stages cheaper and faster and on the highest levels more expensive and complicated

--> Easy to implement:

axe1: 1 coal

axe2: 1 coal + 1 iron

axe3: 3 coal + 2 iron

axe4: 3 coal + 2 iron + 1 gold

axe5: 3 coal + 5 iron + 5 gold or if possible to implement: axe5: 2 coal + 2 iron + 1 diamond

Nice wareflow

--> Execellent step by step levelling, which gives nice flows for your economy

I like this Idea very much ...

since for Upgrade 1 i can also try new things like fastproduce coal with a charcoal burner - and then we have a nice way ro get to the mines.

For 2 i already need to get some Iron. For 3 i am thinking abaout making a massive production, which then follows if i have a nice settlement. For Axe 4 its an important step, i need to find gold. And for 5 we chan choose what is easier to implement, we can either just change the costs to make it higher and therefore it allows thousands of new strategies just by changing the numbers or another rare ressource like like, which indeed isnt really rare these days, but should be in early versions of SirVer, had some nice conversations with him, so stage 5 you will only get to if you find the rare ressource diamond.

If we let it with

1 iron 1 coal

2 iron 2 coal

3 iron 3 coal

3 iron 3 coal 1 gold

3 iron 3 coal 2 gold

It is just linear, not so much multiplayer fun

Edited: 2020-02-20, 21:56

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WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
Posts: 1492
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Location: North of Germany
Posted at: 2020-02-20, 23:21

king_of_nowhere wrote:

the-x wrote:

Hours of playtesting have solved this as excellent Solutions to implement for Build 21 - Please Complete face-smile.png

  • We need to find small Improvements to make levelling the first stages cheaper and faster and on the highest levels more expensive and complicated

--> Easy to implement:

axe1: 1 coal

axe2: 1 coal + 1 iron

axe3: 3 coal + 2 iron

axe4: 3 coal + 2 iron + 1 gold

axe5: 3 coal + 5 iron + 5 gold or if possible to implement: axe5: 2 coal + 2 iron + 1 diamond

-1. while the lower levels certainly need some love, such a huge difference in price means that it would become convenient to skip the last level completely. you could make 2 almost full soldiers at the price of 1, and win with numbers. i don't want to make the higher level promotions a trap.

  • Focus on Economy more than on military

--> Slow down fights to 1/4 --> Set moving speed of soldiers to 1/4

this reduces stress and gives more time to react and more time to watch widelands

-1. fights are already slow, especially when soldiers are promoted in evade and not in attack. if there is a military building with fighting on its doorstep and a few soldiers inside, slowing combat too much will just mean stalling the game. i can easily see a scenario where you can survive indefinitely by pumping up new soldiers faster than the opponent can kill them.

furthermore, it won't even fix anything. if you have early contact, you have early military clash. it will just be more annoying. because, i don't know you, but i couldn't look away while there is a big fight going on.

  • Expansion might be a bit boring by building 10 barracks in a row on every medium to large map

--> radius of barrracs and towers, fortress +2

who has a better problem solution for this?

-1 again. problem with military is fast expansion leading to early contact. in fact, if we want to decrease the military aspect of the game, I would suggest to INCREASE the cost of military buildings, to slow down expansion and thus reduce the possibility of early game attacks.

  • We must find a way that ships can be build earlier in the game

Half the cost of a harbor, harbor needs no more gold, solved the problem to wait extremly long time for 2nd harbor and the impossibility of leveling and building a harbor the same time

i think exploration is fine. i would not want to make it too cheap

I strongly agree with everything you say here, king_of_nowhere - with one exception:

... while the lower levels certainly need some love ...

Lower levels can already be important at the game. I mean, look at my matches against the-x on Crater. His attack is too strong to be defended with a full-promotion-strategy, so it can be all about lower training levels on small maps.


“It's a threat to our planet to believe that someone else will save it.” - Robert Swan

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king_of_nowhere
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Joined: 2014-09-15, 18:35
Posts: 1526
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Posted at: 2020-02-21, 00:11

WorldSavior wrote:

I strongly agree with everything you say here, king_of_nowhere - with one exception:

... while the lower levels certainly need some love ...

Lower levels can already be important at the game. I mean, look at my matches against the-x on Crater. His attack is too strong to be defended with a full-promotion-strategy, so it can be all about lower training levels on small maps.

yes, but besides some corner case the optimal strategy is most often to skip to the full promotion directly. or perhaps to skip to full promotion minus one or two promotions who are less cost-effective.

i wouldn't mind seeing some more use of the middle promotions. but i want the full promotion to still be the best viable strategy if you have actually time and resources to promote your soldiers. so, i could be in favor of a minor correction, but nothing drastic


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the-x
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Posted at: 2020-02-21, 00:15

king_of_nowhere wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

I strongly agree with everything you say here, king_of_nowhere - with one exception:

... while the lower levels certainly need some love ...

Lower levels can already be important at the game. I mean, look at my matches against the-x on Crater. His attack is too strong to be defended with a full-promotion-strategy, so it can be all about lower training levels on small maps.

yes, but besides some corner case the optimal strategy is most often to skip to the full promotion directly. or perhaps to skip to full promotion minus one or two promotions who are less cost-effective.

i wouldn't mind seeing some more use of the middle promotions. but i want the full promotion to still be the best viable strategy if you have actually time and resources to promote your soldiers. so, i could be in favor of a minor correction, but nothing drastic

Yes, thats the case. I understand that the same order has some priority to the game - but different strategies would give more opportunities, many new strategies and it will be very fun thinking on those strategies. maybe always direct hero is always the same order


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