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Topic: Some improvement suggestions for build 20.1

Solstice_s_Return
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Posted at: 2020-02-13, 22:01

It is great to see a lot of nice improvements when moving from b19 to b20. However, not all of the improvements get an applaud from me. Now as I've played several hours with b20, I want to share my thoughts (and maybe ask some question) about its shortcomings from my point of view.

  1. While the new crop field is certainty better than the old, I would still like to have the last word in field placement. The problem is that when I choose to build on a location in the vicinity of unharvested field, the Farmer never sow that location again after harvesting it. While forester plots trees near small and medium buildings, Farmer doesn't sow fields like it did in b19. I think this kind of micromanagement possibility should be left to be up to the player and not make it into the code that there's always space for roads. (Moreover, if it is so then it should be uniformly so with forester too, although I wouldn't suggest that because it should be like in b19)

  2. Some buildings clearly require the opposite version of "not produce because the economy doesn't need product x". For example the marble column maker is prone to make the precious marble blocks into columns even when the stock is low. I think it should do them only for demand when stock is below 20 units.

  3. Finally one question regarding the mines. What has changed between b19 and b20 because now it feels like they deplete much sooner and produce less during an active time?

More things may follow after I've played a bit more. I hope these findings will be useful.

Edited: 2020-02-13, 22:03

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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2020-02-13, 22:26

Solstice_s_Return wrote:

Farmer doesn't sow fields like it did in b19.

are you sure? I didn't recognize a difference, which rather indicates that there is none

  1. Some buildings clearly require the opposite version of "not produce because the economy doesn't need product x". For example the marble column maker is prone to make the precious marble blocks into columns even when the stock is low. I think it should do them only for demand when stock is below 20 units.

but how to implement this? With two different economy settings? Could be a little bit confusing. At the other hand, good that you mention it. In build 18, many buildings produced more than needed when the lower ware was not needed, for example mines kept on producing when there was enough food. That's not that bad actually.

For the marble columns: Setting the demand to a low value lowers the problem currently.

  1. Finally one question regarding the mines. What has changed between b19 and b20 because now it feels like they deplete much sooner and produce less during an active time?

A bug has been fixed: In build19 mines could extract up to 150% more resources from the mines than existed. (Many of them could produce additional resources which have not been removed from the mountains.) In build21, the maximal amount in mountains will be increased from 20 to 50. I'm wondering if resources of current maps should be all increased by 150%...

I hope these findings will be useful.

They are


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2020-02-13, 22:34

Solstice_s_Return wrote:

It is great to see a lot of nice improvements when moving from b19 to b20. However, not all of the improvements get an applaud from me. Now as I've played several hours with b20, I want to share my thoughts (and maybe ask some question) about its shortcomings from my point of view.

  1. While the new crop field is certainty better than the old, I would still like to have the last word in field placement. The problem is that when I choose to build on a location in the vicinity of unharvested field, the Farmer never sow that location again after harvesting it. While forester plots trees near small and medium buildings, Farmer doesn't sow fields like it did in b19. I think this kind of micromanagement possibility should be left to be up to the player and not make it into the code that there's always space for roads. (Moreover, if it is so then it should be uniformly so with forester too, although I wouldn't suggest that because it should be like in b19)

I can't follow you. Nothing has changed as far as I know in the planting of the farmers and foresters.

  1. Some buildings clearly require the opposite version of "not produce because the economy doesn't need product x". For example the marble column maker is prone to make the precious marble blocks into columns even when the stock is low. I think it should do them only for demand when stock is below 20 units.

that can be and should be controled by economy settings. lowering the column setting to 2 or 3 and it doesn't waste your marble for columns. This is explained in the economy tutorial and in empire mission 3.

  1. Finally one question regarding the mines. What has changed between b19 and b20 because now it feels like they deplete much sooner and produce less during an active time?

they produce the same amount in the same time. However they extract only what is in the mountains while they created some ressources out of thin air in b19. so yes they deplete faster now. But they are fair in this point now between all tribes.

More things may follow after I've played a bit more. I hope these findings will be useful.


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niektory
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Posted at: 2020-02-13, 23:43

Solstice_s_Return wrote:

  1. Some buildings clearly require the opposite version of "not produce because the economy doesn't need product x". For example the marble column maker is prone to make the precious marble blocks into columns even when the stock is low. I think it should do them only for demand when stock is below 20 units.

If you're really low on marble, you can set economy demand for columns to 0, so it will only make them when requested by construction sites. You can also lower the amount of marble stored in the building to only store as much as it needs for 1 column (2 I think). Then when you get more marble increase these settings back. I think the game gives good enough control in this case.


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Solstice_s_Return
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Posted at: 2020-02-14, 09:09

niektory wrote:

Solstice_s_Return wrote:

  1. Some buildings clearly require the opposite version of "not produce because the economy doesn't need product x". For example the marble column maker is prone to make the precious marble blocks into columns even when the stock is low. I think it should do them only for demand when stock is below 20 units.

If you're really low on marble, you can set economy demand for columns to 0, so it will only make them when requested by construction sites. You can also lower the amount of marble stored in the building to only store as much as it needs for 1 column (2 I think). Then when you get more marble increase these settings back. I think the game gives good enough control in this case.

I've used direct controls already but not economy demand control, so good to know about that. However, while a player can make adjustments this way, it is also really easy to forget the settings made - especially the settings in individual buildings. Then while a catastrophe gets avoided, these settings can make the game drag badly later on. So if there's an automation, then it shouldn't be partial but to cover the entire sector it affects. Only then it can be fully logical to a player.


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2020-02-14, 10:01

Solstice_s_Return wrote:

niektory wrote:

Solstice_s_Return wrote:

  1. Some buildings clearly require the opposite version of "not produce because the economy doesn't need product x". For example the marble column maker is prone to make the precious marble blocks into columns even when the stock is low. I think it should do them only for demand when stock is below 20 units.

If you're really low on marble, you can set economy demand for columns to 0, so it will only make them when requested by construction sites. You can also lower the amount of marble stored in the building to only store as much as it needs for 1 column (2 I think). Then when you get more marble increase these settings back. I think the game gives good enough control in this case.

I've used direct controls already but not economy demand control, so good to know about that. However, while a player can make adjustments this way, it is also really easy to forget the settings made - especially the settings in individual buildings. Then while a catastrophe gets avoided, these settings can make the game drag badly later on. So if there's an automation, then it shouldn't be partial but to cover the entire sector it affects. Only then it can be fully logical to a player.

Again I am not sure whether I understand your point. The settings in an individual building are different and if at all only loose coupled to the economy setting. This is the setting to be reached from a click on a flag in the economy. In the economy setting you set the amount of wares to be stocked in all warehouses of this economy. After your stock reached this value your productionsites stop producing this ware. They will restart production if the amount in stock gets lower then the limit set.
in the individual buildings you could lower the amount of inputs available (probably to free some wares needed elsewhere) and the priority by which they get delivered. Furthermore youi could completely stop a building (for instance to reach a full stocked building if multiple outputs are dependent on having enough stock in building) still I believe this is all explained in the economy tutorial.
And yes adjusting the economy settings to the current state of economy is recomendable and intended. (e.g. it makes sense to reduce the settings for tools and weapons to zero if you are low on iron, by this only tools needed to create a worker are produced.)


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Solstice_s_Return
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Posted at: 2020-02-14, 12:25

hessenfarmer wrote:

Solstice_s_Return wrote:

It is great to see a lot of nice improvements when moving from b19 to b20. However, not all of the improvements get an applaud from me. Now as I've played several hours with b20, I want to share my thoughts (and maybe ask some question) about its shortcomings from my point of view.

  1. While the new crop field is certainty better than the old, I would still like to have the last word in field placement. The problem is that when I choose to build on a location in the vicinity of unharvested field, the Farmer never sow that location again after harvesting it. While forester plots trees near small and medium buildings, Farmer doesn't sow fields like it did in b19. I think this kind of micromanagement possibility should be left to be up to the player and not make it into the code that there's always space for roads. (Moreover, if it is so then it should be uniformly so with forester too, although I wouldn't suggest that because it should be like in b19)

I can't follow you. Nothing has changed as far as I know in the planting of the farmers and foresters.

Forester does its thing as it did earlier. Farmer doesn't. I'm pretty sure about that but to recheck it I should install b19 again. The thing is that in b19 I used to count available field spaces and then determine if the location was suitable for farming. Now as I tried that approach the first time it failed miserably. I counted that the farm is capable to run five fields but it ended up running only two and after building a new building next to one of it's active (unharvested) fields, the farm switched to using only one field. At that point I decided to dismantle that farm. Then I observed further and realized that the farms used to leave free spaces unused next to small and medium buildings (where forester has no problems at all), so that there were enough room to make an alternative road line around the building if a player wanted so. I'm pretty sure that in b19 they used those spaces because I used to change road lines next to buildings to optimize tight farming areas.


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2020-02-14, 12:53

Solstice_s_Return wrote:

hessenfarmer wrote:

Solstice_s_Return wrote:

It is great to see a lot of nice improvements when moving from b19 to b20. However, not all of the improvements get an applaud from me. Now as I've played several hours with b20, I want to share my thoughts (and maybe ask some question) about its shortcomings from my point of view.

  1. While the new crop field is certainty better than the old, I would still like to have the last word in field placement. The problem is that when I choose to build on a location in the vicinity of unharvested field, the Farmer never sow that location again after harvesting it. While forester plots trees near small and medium buildings, Farmer doesn't sow fields like it did in b19. I think this kind of micromanagement possibility should be left to be up to the player and not make it into the code that there's always space for roads. (Moreover, if it is so then it should be uniformly so with forester too, although I wouldn't suggest that because it should be like in b19)

I can't follow you. Nothing has changed as far as I know in the planting of the farmers and foresters.

Forester does its thing as it did earlier. Farmer doesn't. I'm pretty sure about that but to recheck it I should install b19 again. The thing is that in b19 I used to count available field spaces and then determine if the location was suitable for farming. Now as I tried that approach the first time it failed miserably. I counted that the farm is capable to run five fields but it ended up running only two and after building a new building next to one of it's active (unharvested) fields, the farm switched to using only one field. At that point I decided to dismantle that farm. Then I observed further and realized that the farms used to leave free spaces unused next to small and medium buildings (where forester has no problems at all), so that there were enough room to make an alternative road line around the building if a player wanted so. I'm pretty sure that in b19 they used those spaces because I used to change road lines next to buildings to optimize tight farming areas.

Sounds like the farmer can't walk to the filed due to the way being blocked. If you encounter this again please provide a savegame/replay and a screenshot if possible.
I remember vaguely an issue with fields unreachable but I have to check again.
BTW b20 is already quite outdated in comparison with the current dev version.


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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2020-02-14, 18:05

now that he mentions it, i have had the impression that farms made less fields than possible in some cases. and that they tried to not put too many fields too close. i check

EDIT: i run a quick test with atlanteans on the classic 4x4 configuration of farm surrounded by roads. the farm has no problems putting its fields close by. i was too lazy to check with other tribes

Edited: 2020-02-14, 18:25

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niektory
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Posted at: 2020-02-14, 23:57

Farmers don't have a problem with sowing on locations adjacent to their own farm, but they do not sow on locations adjacent to other buildings (including other farms).

Just checked with Build 20 and Frisians, but I think it's true in master and with other tribes as well.

For example, in this screenshot the farmer does not sow anywhere:

example screenshot

Edited: 2020-02-15, 00:00

Attachment: no_fields.jpg (339.3 KB)

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