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Topic: Balance issue with the imperials

megalive
Joined: 2010-04-12, 22:16
Posts: 12
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Pry about Widelands
Posted at: 2010-04-18, 13:50

At this moment i am playing with the imperials.

When you have no more stone or see stone just outside your terrain the game ends .... The imperials rely that much on stone that when you have a map with not much stone around you the game end suddenly.

I have multiple thoughts about the solution for this

1 the much work costing version Create a sand digger (you can dig sand on any place) stone maker. sand + coal you can greate some kind of stone. (this way you have for the imperials an unlimited outmount of stone)

2 Simple solution the most simple militaire building does not rely on stone. (you can grow and find the place with the stone ..)


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ixprefect
Joined: 2009-02-27, 14:28
Posts: 367
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Tribe Member
Posted at: 2010-04-18, 16:03

I agree that being forced to use a limited resource like stone just to expand your territory is pretty rough. However, mines already provide a way to get infinite stones, don't they?


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megalive
Joined: 2010-04-12, 22:16
Posts: 12
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Pry about Widelands
Posted at: 2010-04-18, 17:14

If mines are the way for stone. Then the maps should be build that you can reach a mine anyhow.

Now i have a game where i can not reach anystone ....


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SirVer
Joined: 2009-02-19, 15:18
Posts: 1438
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One Elder of Players
Location: Germany - Munich
Posted at: 2010-04-18, 18:00

neither the barracks (for exanding) nor the quarry (for stones) need any stone. I cannot see your problem.


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megalive
Joined: 2010-04-12, 22:16
Posts: 12
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Pry about Widelands
Posted at: 2010-04-18, 18:03

your correct :). i had made a mistake with the guardpost ... that requires stone


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megalive
Joined: 2010-04-12, 22:16
Posts: 12
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Pry about Widelands
Posted at: 2010-04-20, 23:48

I did a small calculation (manual) based on the fact that i wanted too train my soldiers good and had a continue stream of good for the training. I ended up needing around 300 stones from the map with the imperials. So a map needs too close by the starting point around 300+ stones avaible ... I did not calc militairy buildings. nor i did do the calc with marble mines. Both require more stone I showed up why i screwed with this people too many times in my personal games :).

Here below the calculation. Proberly requires a lot of discussion. But it explains why there is a need for a nice balance check. Maybe it is not a prio 1. yet it should be done before the game is finished.

going for end result training soldiers

collosseum and trainings camp not putting in as requirement quary or saw mill , woodcutter as most buildings need them

for easy calculation trunk and wood are both 1 wood (ie 1 trunk creates 1 wood) Stone and marble are both 1 stone (ie 50% chance of stone or marmer out of a mine or quarry) marblecolum is 2 stone (requires 2 marbles)

Only wood and stone are calculated

the colleseum -> 14 stone , 4 wood Requires: smelthing works , weaving mill Requires for running : Bakery , piggery , fisherman update from arena

arena: 17 stone ,6 wood As immeadly updated too colleseum we do not veriry what i needs too run.

Trainingscamp: 16 stone , 6 wood requires: smelthing works , weaving mill Requires for running :piggery, Armour Smithy, fishery, Weapon Smithy, bakery

Shared buildings (only used for building ) (so only 1 of each needed as in the end things get build)

quary: 3 wood

Lumberjack's House : 1 wood Requires for running: forester

Forester's House : 2 wood , 1 stone Requires for running: Lumberjack's House

Saw mill : 2 stone , 2 wood Requires for running : Lumberjack's House

Smelting works 5 stone , 2 wood Requires for running : gold mine , cool mine , iron mine

Weaving mill : 7 stone , 1 wood Requires for running : Sheepfarm

sheepfarm : 2 stone , 4 wood requires for running: farm and well \ gold mine : 6 wood Requires for running : winery, tavern

cool mine : 6 wood Requires for running : brewery, tavern

iron mine : 6 wood Requires for running : brewery, tavern

tavern: 3 stone , 2 wood Requires for running : backery, Fisher's House, Piggery

brewery : 2 stone , 4 wood Requires for running : well , farm

winery: 5 stone , 1 wood Requires for running: Vineyard

Vineyard: 8 stone , 1 wood

brewery : 2 stone , 4 wood Requires for running : well , farm

backery: 2 stone , 5 wood Requires for running :Mill, well

Fisher's house : 1 stone , 2 wood

piggery : 6 stone : 2 wood Requires for running: farm , well

farm : 8 stone , 2 wood

well : 3 stone , 1 wood

mill :6 stone , 1 wood Requires for running : farm

Stonemason's House: 2 stone , 4 wood Requires for running : quarry

---------------------------------------- Buildings used for production Backery needs there own well and own mill too run at 100%. --------- backery: 2 stone , 5 wood Requires for running :Mill, well

farm : 8 stone , 2 wood

well : 3 stone , 1 wood

mill :6 stone , 1 wood Requires for running : farm


piggery : 6 stone : 2 wood Requires for running: farm , well piggerye needs own farm and well too run at 100%


farm : 8 stone , 2 wood well : 3 stone , 1 wood


Fisher's house : 1 stone , 2 wood

piggery : 6 stone : 2 wood Requires for running: farm , well piggerye needs own farm and well too run at 100%


farm : 8 stone , 2 wood well : 3 stone , 1 wood


Fisher's house : 1 stone , 2 wood

Backery needs there own well and own mill too run at 100%.

backery: 2 stone , 5 wood Requires for running :Mill, well

farm : 8 stone , 2 wood

well : 3 stone , 1 wood

mill :6 stone , 1 wood Requires for running : farm


Weapon Smithy 9 stone , 2 wood Requures for running coal mine , smelting works , saw mill

coal mine : 6 wood Requires for running : brewery, tavern

gold mine : 6 wood Requires for running : winery, tavern

coal mine : 6 wood Requires for running : brewery, tavern

iron mine : 6 wood Requires for running : brewery, tavern

Smelting works 5 stone , 2 wood Requires for running : gold mine , cool mine , iron mine

Lumberjack's House : 1 wood Requires for running: forester

Forester's House : 2 wood , 1 stone Requires for running: Lumberjack's House

Saw mill : 2 stone , 2 wood Requires for running : Lumberjack's House

( 2 brewery's needed ? not sure here) brewery : 2 stone , 4 wood Requires for running : well , farm

farm : 8 stone , 2 wood

well : 3 stone , 1 wood

winery: 5 stone , 1 wood Requires for running: Vineyard

Vineyard: 8 stone , 1 wood

tavern: 3 stone , 2 wood Requires for running : backery, Fisher's House, Piggery

backery: 2 stone , 5 wood Requires for running :Mill, well

well : 3 stone , 1 wood

mill :6 stone , 1 wood Requires for running : farm

farm : 8 stone , 2 wood

Fisher's house : 1 stone , 2 wood

piggery : 6 stone : 2 wood Requires for running: farm , well

farm : 8 stone , 2 wood

well : 3 stone , 1 wood

Armour Smithy
requires for running : Coals mine , smelting works, Weaving Mill coal mine : 6 wood Requires for running : brewery, tavern

coal mine : 6 wood Requires for running : brewery, tavern

gold mine : 6 wood Requires for running : winery, tavern

coal mine : 6 wood Requires for running : brewery, tavern

iron mine : 6 wood Requires for running : brewery, tavern

Smelting works 5 stone , 2 wood Requires for running : gold mine , cool mine , iron mine

brewery : 2 stone , 4 wood Requires for running : well , farm

farm : 8 stone , 2 wood

well : 3 stone , 1 wood

winery: 5 stone , 1 wood Requires for running: Vineyard

Vineyard: 8 stone , 1 wood

tavern: 3 stone , 2 wood Requires for running : backery, Fisher's House, Piggery

backery: 2 stone , 5 wood Requires for running :Mill, well

well : 3 stone , 1 wood

mill :6 stone , 1 wood Requires for running : farm

farm : 8 stone , 2 wood

Fisher's house : 1 stone , 2 wood

piggery : 6 stone : 2 wood Requires for running: farm , well

farm : 8 stone , 2 wood

well : 3 stone , 1 wood

Weaving mill : 7 stone , 1 wood Requires for running : Sheepfarm

sheepfarm : 2 stone , 4 wood requires for running: farm and well

farm : 8 stone , 2 wood

well : 3 stone , 1 wood

Edited: 2010-04-20, 23:49
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SirVer
Joined: 2009-02-19, 15:18
Posts: 1438
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One Elder of Players
Location: Germany - Munich
Posted at: 2010-04-21, 09:28

I am sorry, I can't make anything from what you wrote. What is the message you want to get over?


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Astuur
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Joined: 2009-02-28, 10:08
Posts: 733
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One Elder of Players
Location: Frankfurt / Germany
Posted at: 2010-04-21, 09:28

To sum it all up: Yes, the Imperials are not the easy to play when you start a game. This is especially true when you play a small map (where you contact other enemy tribes early) and when you have limited space or limited stone around you. Food production is crucial, too, since you can neither breed fish nor venison. Once you do have a decent economy going, they're a fine tribe and damn competitive. I like them face-smile.png


Being no programmer, I apologize for all my suggestions that imply undue workload and for other misjudgements due to lack of expertise or relevant skills.
I am on Win32, have no means to compile, and rely on prefabricated distributions (Thanks to Tino).

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Nasenbaer
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Joined: 2009-02-21, 18:17
Posts: 829
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One Elder of Players
Location: Germany
Posted at: 2010-04-21, 16:12

Before discussing further on balancing I want to see a real calculation!!!!

Sorry but your list is simply wrong: A farm does not cost 8 stone, neither does the traningscamp cost 16 stone - I did not look further as this is a waste of my time.


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megalive
Joined: 2010-04-12, 22:16
Posts: 12
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Pry about Widelands
Posted at: 2010-04-21, 17:18

Nasenbaer wrote: Before discussing further on balancing I want to see a real calculation!!!! Sorry but your list is simply wrong: A farm does not cost 8 stone, neither does the traningscamp cost 16 stone - I did not look further as this is a waste of my time.

For getting the balance right first simplify.... And simpliefied too just stone and wood (check the post here) ........ And i am not going too make a impossible too understand calculation ... Unless people agree there is a balance issue and there should be worked on it. Then i will make a excel sheet with all kind of calculations in it and with all details you need ... Not spending many hours on a sheet that is not needed.

On the map you have 5 types of resources

A stone -> can become stone or marble B trees -> can be used for wood or trunks C Iron / Coal / Gold -> mining resources

A farm cost 2 wood 2 stone (becomes 2 stone on the map) 2 marble (becomes 2 stone on the map) 2 marble columes (becomes 4 stone on the map)

Calc back too wat is on the map

A farm cost 2 trees and 8 stone

A traningscamp cost 5 gold (becomes 5 coals and 5 gold on the map) 3 wood (become 3 wood on the map) 4 marble (becomes 4 stone on the map) 2 cloth (becomes no resources on the map) 4 trunk (becomes 4 wood on the map) 2 stone (becomes 2 stone on the map) 5 colums (becomes 10 stone on the map)

Calc back too wat is on the map

A Trainings camp cost 7 wood 16 stone 5 coals 5 gold


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