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Topic: wouldn't it be nice to have a minable tree-friendly terrain?

wl-zocker
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Posted at: 2015-11-29, 22:38

as for the distinction between dead and impassable, i also could find more intuitive the way you suggest, but the current version is more accurate. consider: uf you make a thin strip of swamp, you can walk over it, even make roads over it. you can't build over it, so the terrain is dead in that sense. while you cannot step on lava in any way, so lava is impassable.

I see your point. I still don't like "dead" though because it sounds too harsh. Could we call this terrain "unstable" or something like that? It is too unstable to build longer roads or flags, but it is fine for short roads.


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kaputtnik
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Posted at: 2015-11-29, 22:51

Uhm, i a bit confused about your last posts, king_of_nowhere and wl_zocker, Hoping that my last screenshot does not bring up this discussion. From my point of view:

  • Water is navigable, not walkable
  • Swamp is impassable, but a road could be build on the edges (only a walkable sign)
  • Dead terrain is impassable, no roads on the edges. In Fact dead terrains have a influence of 1 field around it where nothing could be build. Also no immovables could be placed here.
  • Shallow water is future talk, but in my mind it should not be navigable, but walkable over footbridges.

About the term of dead: From my point of view "dead" is hard but ok. Maybe "irreclaimable" or "unlivable".


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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2015-11-30, 09:45

How about:

  • dead -> impassable. Lava Rocks, Snow, ...
  • impassable -> mire. Swamp only at this time.

Only one of those tags apply, and only one is needed. I assume it's intuitive enough that if a terrain is arable, it is automatically also walkable, or that you cannot make roads on a water terrain.

What about shallow water where both ships can pass and flags (better: only roads, no flags - but that's more complicated) can be built? We would need a new icon for this combination. Or do you want to indicate passability for ships with a third icon? Then, water and whatever be take for swamp could use the same first icon.

We don't have terrain icons for terrain combinations; we only have terrain icons for single terrains. Both cases are the same terrain.

Edited: 2015-11-30, 09:51

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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2015-11-30, 16:29

If we make shallow water in the future, we may use the walkable tag for it, or it could be walkable/navigable, or "walkable with bridges", or a new tag depending on what we do with it. We should worry about that when we have a final consensus about what shallow water will do. Just as we should worry about a arable and minable terrain if we make one. For now, arable/minable/walkable/navigable/dead/impassable are all we need, and trying to predict future tags for future terrain with pecuiar traits when we are not sure what those traits will be is putting the cart in front of the horses.

The best way to plan for that, I believe, is simply to make sure that the code can accomodate more tags with minimal reprogramming.

As for the dead vs impassable argument, it seems everyone has a different idea of what would be more understandable. I suggest you jjust pick one. after all, dead/impassable had been fine until now, the world won't collapse if you pick a wrong tag.


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kaputtnik
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Posted at: 2015-11-30, 19:13

Currently we have "dead' for terrains which are really bad, even if someone walks nearby. F.e. there is

  • "lava" and
  • "lava rocks" (wasteland; the yellowish one)

I think it is good that nothing can walk on the edges of this type of terrains because nobody wants to walk nearby a lava stream... and this circumstance is also in the game. So for this kinds of terrains we should find a term that fits with this circumstances (if needed). The other terrains which are currently dead are:

  • "snow" (summer)
  • "lava rocks" (wasteland; looks like a party solidified lava stream)

From my point of view "snow" and "lava rocks" could be defined as "impassable". There is no reason why one couldn't walk nearby. So this terrains behave like swamp.

In general i think we should use terms which describes the "accessibility" of a terrain in a global way. Like we have "impassable/walkable(or passable)/arable (instead of "green")". If we use terms which describe a specific type of terrain (like "mire"), this term looks wired if we use it also for snow (if we want it impassable). It's difficult to describe what i mean, hope that it is understandable.


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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2015-11-30, 21:56

I understand what you mean face-smile.png

I am in favour of making snow and lava rocks impassable. That would leave us with thinking about a better term for "dead". We had "acid" before, but I don't think that works very well either. Here are some similar terms from a thesaurus that we could think about for the 2 terms:

  • inaccessible
  • impenetrable
  • restricted
  • obstructed
  • unreachable

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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2015-12-01, 01:09

i didn't want to suggest more terms, but since we are doing that...

my own idea would have taken inspiration from genetic transmission, and named the terrains "dominant impassable" and "recessive impassable", to indicate that in the first case just one tile of impassable terrain is enough to make a corner inaccessible, while in the second if there is just one tile of passable terrain you can plant a flag there. For me it is intuitive, i don't think it would be for most people.

EDIT: huh, i opened the editor to check, and was surprised that swamp is impassable and lava dead. i would have bet on the opposite. I also was surprised to see than in build 18 there were no such tags.

Edited: 2015-12-01, 01:31

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kaputtnik
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Posted at: 2015-12-01, 08:04

GunChleoc wrote:

  • inaccessible
  • unreachable

I would vote for one of this two with a tend to "unreachable"

We need a decision about the trees on wasteland mountain. See this post for example images. GunChleoc prefers to have more different trees on them because it fits better with the trees on normal terrain (the second picture). I would prefer to have less different trees on them (first image). So the votes are 1 : 1 face-grin.png

Edited: 2015-12-01, 08:07

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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2015-12-01, 09:16

I'd vote second picture. a subalpine climate is different from the climate of the plain, and the different trees reflect that.


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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2015-12-01, 10:39

+1 for "unreachable".

I think the genetics reference requires too much knowledge - just imagine a young kid who hasn't covered genetics in school yet trying to make a map. The kid won't understand.

king_of_nowhere wrote:

EDIT: huh, i opened the editor to check, and was surprised that swamp is impassable and lava dead. i would have bet on the opposite. I also was surprised to see than in build 18 there were no such tags.

Yep, I also tried to check Build18 to see what he had before - I think I added the tags sometime to make it easier for map designers to understand the terrain properties. There was nobody around at the time to design icons.

Edited: 2015-12-01, 10:41

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