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Topic: Remove goods before dismantling

Lykos
Joined: 2012-09-28, 02:01
Posts: 4
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Just found this site
Posted at: 2012-09-28, 02:08

If I want to dismantle a building that stores goods, e.g. a mine, then I always remove the goods first and then I dismantle it. I think it would be reasonable if clicking "dismantle" would automatically take care of removing the goods first. Is this feature already planned? If not, I can see if I can implement it, doesn't sound to be too hard, but it depends on how fast I get along with the code and how much time I have.


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wl-zocker
Joined: 2011-12-30, 17:37
Posts: 495
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Tribe Member
Location: Germany
Posted at: 2012-09-28, 10:17

I am quite sure that there has been some discussion about this topic, but I cannot find any thread at the moment.

I also think that this is a good idea and I hope you find the time to implement that feature.

Some points that might cause problems:

  • What happens if no worker is in the building? (How is this managed now when one only removes the goods?)
  • What happens if the builder arrives before the goods are out of the building?
  • A combination of the two: Will a builder be "reserved" forever if the wares are not carried out (because of the lack of tools)?

I do not know what others think about this topic, but I think it is annoying if I always have to look twice after a building.


"Only few people know how much one has to know in order to know how little one knows." - Werner Heisenberg

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Lykos
Joined: 2012-09-28, 02:01
Posts: 4
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Just found this site
Posted at: 2012-09-28, 12:57

I also looked for an old thread because I assumed that there has to be some discussion about that, but on the first sight, I didn't find anything. But it seems to be more difficult than I thought at first, I will look what I can do, but since I have never even looked at the code before, I cannot make any guarantees.^^


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PkK
Joined: 2012-01-06, 12:19
Posts: 235
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Widelands-Forum-Junkie
Posted at: 2012-09-29, 19:02

Having the builder help carry out wares as soon as he arrives should solve these problems.

Philipp


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fuchur
Joined: 2009-10-07, 14:01
Posts: 185
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Widelands-Forum-Junkie
Location: Germany
Posted at: 2012-10-02, 19:16

I found this thread discussing the same topic, but it's only four posts. I think there was another discussion, but I can't find it.

http://wl.widelands.org/forum/topic/985/

Edit:

Ok, I thought of launchpad and found two topics there. First is the suggestion of the dismantle feature: https://bugs.launchpad.net/widelands/+bug/587251

Second is a discussion about wasted wares when ubgrading a building. In comment 11 SirVer states that it is intended the way it is currently implemented. The user should decide if he wants the wares carried out by setting the maximum ware count to zero. https://bugs.launchpad.net/widelands/+bug/559854

Edited: 2012-10-02, 19:34

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wl-zocker
Joined: 2011-12-30, 17:37
Posts: 495
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Location: Germany
Posted at: 2012-10-02, 20:37

I cannot really understand the problem described in the other threads.

  • Either I want a building to be away as fast as possible. Then I burn it down.
  • Or I want all resources back. Then I empty the building and dismantle it.
  • Or I want only the resources inside back. Then I empty the building and burn it down.
  • The case that I only want the building materials back is quite unlogical because a) the wares are normally more (quantitatively) and b) while the builder comes wares can be carried out, which is never wrong.

What buildings do I dismantle mainly?

  • Fisherhuts and quarries that have run out of fish/stone. It makes no difference because no wares are inside.
  • Empty mines. Why should I want to waste expensive food (space-consuming wheat -> (mill) -> bakery -> tavern) when I still have other mines?

If we look at the enhancing feature that works the very same way (first empty, then upgrade): What do I upgrade?

  • Mines. Reasons why goods should be carried out see above.
  • Taverns/Inns. Apart from that they contain bread and maybe beer (both produced from space-consuming wheat), there are three ware types (or even four, in case of the Barbarian Inn) that have to be ejected manually.
  • Microbrewery. Not as bad as before, because both inputs are not processed yet, but however, it would be nice if I had not do do that.

Conclusion

  • Inside of a building, there are normally valuable goods. If the player has time to dismantle the building, why not save them? (If he upgrades the building, the builder also needs the time to come.)
  • Ejecting the goods manually before dismantling/upgrading means: I have to click some more times (up to four times) and I have to look twice after the building.

So I am for a auto-emptying feature when dismantling/upgrading.

What do others think?


"Only few people know how much one has to know in order to know how little one knows." - Werner Heisenberg

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fuchur
Joined: 2009-10-07, 14:01
Posts: 185
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Widelands-Forum-Junkie
Location: Germany
Posted at: 2012-10-03, 11:11

I agree that almost every time I dismantle or upgrade a building I empty the stock first. Usually I watch the wares being carried out before clicking on the dismantle button. That's because otherwise I tend to forget to come back and do it face-wink.png But maybe for others the situation is different as I very often play without opponents. So time is not a critical issue. To recapulate: I'd appreciate the auto empty feature.

There is one situation where that feature could be suboptimal. If there is a traffic jam on the road and the flag of the building is allready occupied with wares, it can take al long time to complete the action. During that time also the builder is bound to that location while maybe he's already needed elsewhere. But I don't think this is a big problem as the player can have a look at the traffic before deciding which action to perform.

This issue could also be resolved by requesting the builder only after the building is empty. But if the distance to the next warehouse is large this would increase the time needed tor the total process. So I think I'd prefer to make the request for the builder immediately after clicking upgrade or dismantle.


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Shevonar
Joined: 2011-09-05, 21:28
Posts: 136
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At home in WL-forums
Posted at: 2012-10-03, 15:14

I suggest having a community poll about this topic. However I think that the majority will be in favor of the change.

Personally I think that it can improve the flow of the game when you not have to check the same building over and over again to see when it is finally empty so you can dismantle it. However this is what Widelands is all about: Managing your wares and resources as well as possible.

Another problem I see when changing this: The user interface somehow needs to tell the player that the building will be emptied before the dismantling/upgrade process starts. Maybe it is enough to change the tooltip of the buttons to "Empty building and dismantle/upgrade".


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tosz
Joined: 2012-09-03, 13:39
Posts: 22
Ranking
Pry about Widelands
Location: Gdynia, Poland
Posted at: 2012-10-03, 18:10

However this is what Widelands is all about: Managing your wares and resources as well as possible.

From my experience, dismantling is most often associated with emptying the building, so making this automatic is reliefing the player from tedious, uninteresting clicking rather than making managment simpler. Burdening the player with uninteresting or unimportant activities does not go well with management of resources.

Another problem I see when changing this: The user interface somehow needs to tell the player that the building will be emptied before the dismantling/upgrade process starts. Maybe it is enough to change the tooltip of the buttons to "Empty building and dismantle/upgrade".

When I first dismantled a building I was unpleasantly surprised that wares were wasted instead of carried out, so perhaps it is intuitive to some people that dismantling entails emptying the building first.


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wl-zocker
Joined: 2011-12-30, 17:37
Posts: 495
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Tribe Member
Location: Germany
Posted at: 2012-10-03, 18:25

Before we start a community poll, we have to collect arguments for both sides. Especially arguments against the change are missing (yet).

Widelands is an economy game, so the player has to manage his economy as well as possible. But if he has decided to dismantle/upgrade a building, it is micro-managment to say "put the rations out - and the beer - and finally upgrade the mine". As Shevonar already wrote, it is hindering if the player has to do two things (empty the building and upgrade/dismantle) if he actually only wants one thing (upgrade/dismantle).

The players have to be told that the building will be emptied before the builder begins his work. I think changing the tooltip can help new players, but experienced players do not look at it anymore. Same goes for the tutorial. How could these players be informed? Would it help to write that in the changelog (I look there always after having installed a new version)?


"Only few people know how much one has to know in order to know how little one knows." - Werner Heisenberg

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