Topic: Frisian Balancing

hessenfarmer wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

Furthermore this behaviour is not consistent and illogical, especially in comparison to the goldmine.

This doesn't have to mean a lack of logic, because mine values are just different.

Normally gold is harder to find and mine in reality. Therefore it seems to be very illogic for me that a mine of the same upgrade level and same worker experience delivers more gold than iron. So from my point of view this is something illogic that doesen't need to exist / is easy to fix.

I see your point and I think now that your idea to change the mine is okay (or not only okay but good)...

As I don't have much time now, I haven't started yet.

Shall I try to provide a branch including the changes from our dicussion in the other thread. I could try to improve frisian balancing and I could fix the barbarian deep iron mine to have the same values as deep gold mine.

Now I've got more time again and I could already change the files and send them in. So you don't have to do it, thanks. By the way, as I was already checking the mines, I've already given the iron mine the gold-mine-values.

I just didn't change frisian buildings that much, so probably someone still has to repair their mines. (!)

I think that I've got no time for that...

That is a pity. So as my changes regarding balancing are in trunk now, perhaps we get some other feedback regarding the balancing of the tribe. Although I really would have appreciated you doing a short 1 hour run and provide your opinion on the current state. Without any further feedback I am lost now in considering improvements. Anyway thanks for your contribution.

You're welcome.

Even without playtesting I can say that for example the output of 4 wares in deep frisian mines (for each meal) is far too low to be enough. And probably barley farms are still too bad.

I playtested a bit. Barley farms are now fast enough when they are running, they just need much more fields than other farms and they need a lot of time to begin the production.

regarding the mining you might be right probably it should be 5 per meal to have an adequate cost per ware.

I rather thought about 7 or 6...

On the other hand there are some values even higher than the frisian cost per ware. Probably atlanteans gold mines do not deliver much for the food and drinks.

Just a little detail: I don't think that bread and smoked fish are drinks But it's true, gold mines are a weakness of the Atlanteans. Even though they are probably better than deep frisian mines...

Barley farms are sufficient in my experience when they are finally running at 100%. However it lasts somewhat long until this is the case. But this is a weakness of the tribe that we could call intentional. If at all we could lower the barley growth time by a minor value to speed this up a little.

Wanted to save the world, then I got widetracked

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hessenfarmer wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

As I don't have much time now, I haven't started yet.

Shall I try to provide a branch including the changes from our dicussion in the other thread. I could try to improve frisian balancing and I could fix the barbarian deep iron mine to have the same values as deep gold mine.

Now I've got more time again and I could already change the files and send them in. So you don't have to do it, thanks. By the way, as I was already checking the mines, I've already given the iron mine the gold-mine-values.

I just didn't change frisian buildings that much, so probably someone still has to repair their mines. (!)

so if you want to provide a branch on launchpad containing your very reasonable changes to the mines including my findings regarding balancing we should incorporate frisian mines in the scheme as well to ensure at least the same things we agree about in the other tribes (mainly only one ware per ressource should be mined).

Okay, branch online. You convicend me to repair the frisian mines, too

As you mentioned some privacy/ data security issues with launchpad I really would offer to you to create teh branch and incorporate the things we would discus in the forum (but probably better in your thread about mining where this should belong).

Thanks, but GunChleoc already uploaded the branch.

Unfortunately I discovered some mistakes which I made there (deep frisians mines except for coal mine), but I sended already the corrections.

So if you give me a go I am more than happy to incorporate your thoughts to a branch on launchpad. By the way it is good to hear you are a little bit less stressed now. too many pressure is no good to nothing.

That's true

As long as your time allows now I still would be happy to have replays of your attempts to manage a dedicated map with different tribes over maybe 2 to 3 hours.

I'm wondering - shouldn't we implement further improvements for the frisians before we test? For example, experience of workers could be reduced (the same thing has been done with barbarians), and weapon smithies could need a speed up, because I removed the "speed down" of all other weapon smithies again (because there was no real reason for it) - and not only because of this reason, but also because they are slow and Frisians need a lot of weapons. And I discovered that berries don't grow that well, is it possible that farmers plant wrong berries sometimes? Furthermore there are some maps where trees grow well but berries grow very bad (for example on "hard ground" terrain).

Especially frisians and your favourite tribe for the map. This really could be helpful for further balancing issues with the frisians and probably some valuable information for further tribes ( I really hope that the efforts of the Hunter are leading to something useable). But don't feel stressed by me for this reason we could to this well in the future as well. Thanks for the fruitful discussion anyway. It really would have been nothing without your inputs (although I hoped for more input to this issue)

You're welcome. Well, I don't think that it would have been nothing without my help...

Wanted to save the world, then I got widetracked

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WorldSavior wrote:

Okay, branch online. You convicend me to repair the frisian mines, too

Thanks a lot just saw the branch this morning and had a look to the diffs. Currently I don't understand everything in detail but I will dig through the code. For easing this in the future it would be helpful to split the commits / branches in smaller units. (e.g. changes to fix mines, changes to undo unnecessary changes, general corrections of production cycles). However from my perspective we should at least inform the community in the other related threads about the changes as well. I saw that you discovered wrong orders of production programs in the frisians buildings which led to long cycles if not properly supplied. this is an essential fix to frisan balance and behaviour and so should get into b20 to have frisians as good as they currently could be. The mine fixes would be fine as well. Only the fixes to the smithies were not finally discussed in the forum also I would support your opinion about the unnecessary uplift of the production cycle. Las t thing is the removal of the penalty sleep time for not supllying the building properly. First I don't know whether this could end in performance isssues. Furthermore I would be in favor of a small penalty for not supplying production sites properly. But essentially we need to evaluate if this could lead to performance problems.
Overall many thanks for your work and analysis.

Unfortunately I discovered some mistakes which I made there (deep frisians mines except for coal mine), but I sended already the corrections.

okay saw that as well good to see it will be fixed.

As long as your time allows now I still would be happy to have replays of your attempts to manage a dedicated map with different tribes over maybe 2 to 3 hours.

I'm wondering - shouldn't we implement further improvements for the frisians before we test? For example, experience of workers could be reduced (the same thing has been done with barbarians), and weapon smithies could need a speed up, because I removed the "speed down" of all other weapon smithies again (because there was no real reason for it) - and not only because of this reason, but also because they are slow and Frisians need a lot of weapons. And I discovered that berries don't grow that well, is it possible that farmers plant wrong berries sometimes? Furthermore there are some maps where trees grow well but berries grow very bad (for example on "hard ground" terrain).

Agreed that we will need to adjust the weapon production to the other tribe's values. I already made some calculations in training.xlsx. I will update this with your new values (thanks for the work ;-)) and see where we are.

I am not sure as far as I understood Nordfriese made a berry bush for every terrain. and the same pickiness as for trees should apply. Maybe the bushes are less picky to ensure for some variety in the optics.

the main reason for asking of some testplay was to have a benchmark and discover more possible possibilities to improve the balance without changing the "character" of the tribe. for this last reason I would consider changes in experience as last ressort cause the longer experience needed is some part of this character as I understand it. (Nordfriese could correct me if I am wrong)

You're welcome. Well, I don't think that it would have been nothing without my help...

As you were the person discussing with me the most frequent I would have little chance to reflect things proper. so thanks again.

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Branch is up for review: https://code.launchpad.net/~widelands-dev/widelands/mines-worldsavior/+merge/350716

Busy indexing nil values

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Nordfriese wrote:

On nearly all terrains 3 berry farms for 2 collectors and 1 beekeeper are a good ratio.

Sounds good to me - this makes for more interesting gameplay than having a 1:1 relationship for everything. This tribe's design is aimed at advanced players, after all.

GunChleoc wrote:

Also regarding Scenario 2, I found it very convenient that the wares stored in the Empire warehouse are preselected - some additional items should be blocked though: cloth, meat, tools, all workers.

Hm I took this as a "hidden" challenge from Nordfriese to set the warehouse settings properly. if he wouldn't mind we could easily implement this.

It is a hidden challenge, but not quite as you think. The warehouse likes exactly those wares which frisians and empire have in common. And if the player chooses to fulfill the demands despite all warnings, the empire will grab all wares in the warehouse which it can use, not just the required-list

Good point, let's keep it as it is then

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