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Topic: How to add another localization file?

kraileth
Joined: 2010-03-14, 16:34
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Posted at: 2010-06-05, 23:48

I've been playing quite a bit with the launchpad translation system and I really find it easy and nice to use. I also figured that by adding a "preferred language" that is not yet featured in WL, I gain the possibility to add it. Yet I'd like to add another translation which is not on the list... How would I do so?

In Germany there has been a spelling reform, the so-called "Rechtschreibreform" (or better: A whole series of reforms which attempted ironing out at least the most ugly phenomena that occured after the first...). But many people do not follow it. Actually the number of companies, magazines and individuals who refuse to use one of the new spellings, is big enough for software like Word to include both standards (called "old spelling" and "new spelling"). Also there are two ways in today's German to adress somebody; if you know the person well, you use one pronoun ("Du") and if you are not so close, you use another ("Sie"). It is considered rude or impolite at least to use the first one if you do not know somebody well. Also in formal language only the second one, the polite form, is used. (For those interested in this, think of old English which had something like this as well. Today I can only say: "Would you please do this and that"? Or I could have used: "Wouldst thou ...")

Now I would like to see an additional localization file for German (old spelling)/Deutsch (Alte Rechtschreibung). Using the personal addressing is ok for children and many people actually don't mind. But having a choice is always a good thing. The formal speech sounds more mature and the old spelling is a much more pleasing read for many people. I also think about people who have learned German as a foreign language before the spelling change(s) for whom all the horseplay is especially annoying. When translating, I'm also always tempted to use even older forms or words that have become unusual today. It may sound strange, but this really adds to the atmosphere and fits the game extremely well from my point of view. Everybody who loves languages, plays role-playing games or enjoys reading a (good!) fantasy novel now and then, would surely like this. If you've ever composed fantasy texts yourself, you'll know what I mean. But using more advanced speech is sadly nothing for the majority of today's people. So I can't do this in the standard German translation. Yet adding another translation would simply solve that problem.

So - could anybody tell me what I need to do to add another "language"?


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QCS
Joined: 2009-12-29, 22:47
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Posted at: 2010-06-07, 18:15

I believe this is not possible, as long as widelands is using gettext as localization package.


CMake is evil.

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kraileth
Joined: 2010-03-14, 16:34
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Posted at: 2010-06-07, 18:25

A pitty. But thanks for your answer! Oh, and does "as long as widelands is using gettext" imply that this could change at some point?


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Nasenbaer
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Joined: 2009-02-21, 18:17
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Posted at: 2010-06-07, 20:00

It is possible - but only manually - you would need to define a new language short form (as there is none in iso standard) like "de_old" create po files from the current pot files and begin to translate (or copy the current German and modify them).

The bigger question is, whether we would include it.

I would be against it, as it is not standard and we would have to update it manually all the time (but well would have to be discussed). However a seperate download would of course be possible.


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kraileth
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Posted at: 2010-06-07, 20:31

Thanks for clarifying the matter, Nasenbaer.

So - technically it is possible but very awkward to do and it would have to be kept up to date manually...

BTW, I didn't ask if you'd want to include it, because I read "widelands is translated with Open permissions" on launchpad. And since there are even translations in Esperanto or Latin, which I think is nice but not that useful for a large number of people, I simply asked how Old German Spelling could be implemented. Hey, even Occitan has been added a short time ago! I'd have translated it on my own if nobody else wanted to help with it, but I didn't know that it could only be done in a hacky way.

*Sigh* So the main problem is actually politics, right?

Bokmål is used by about 90% of approx. 5 Million Norwegians. Nynorsk is used by about 10% of Norway's populance. But still both forms have an official legal status. And while even Low German is available in launchpad, Classic German does not have any legal status despite being used by millions of Germans and people from other nations who learned the language more than a few years ago...

Another question to you, Nasenbaer: Would you not have it included because of the trouble it would mean to keep it up to date manually, or because you are against it in general? I think about writing to launchpad and asking if it would be possible to add Classic German without too much trouble. But if you're against including it, then I can of course save my time. In this case I'd however ask you to explain why you are against it. It would really interest me.


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sigra
Joined: 2009-03-05, 19:02
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Posted at: 2010-06-08, 06:10

Interesting issue. When I translated Freeciv to Swedish a decade ago, I used a somewhat older and more pleasing version, as used at the peak of the language from 1906 and the following half century (since then, Swedish has mostly degenerated, although the reform to address people with "du" is an improvement). Recently, reformers have changed the Freeciv translation. By the way, my German is from before the reform.


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Nasenbaer
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Posted at: 2010-06-08, 18:18

kraileth wrote:

Bokmål is used by about 90% of approx. 5 Million Norwegians. Nynorsk is used by about 10% of Norway's populance. But still both forms have an official legal status. And while even Low German is available in launchpad, Classic German does not have any legal status despite being used by millions of Germans and people from other nations who learned the language more than a few years ago... Another question to you, Nasenbaer: Would you not have it included because of the trouble it would mean to keep it up to date manually, or because you are against it in general? I think about writing to launchpad and asking if it would be possible to add Classic German without too much trouble. But if you're against including it, then I can of course save my time. In this case I'd however ask you to explain why you are against it. It would really interest me.

I think these are two different pair of shoes face-wink.png

Bokmål and Nynorsk are not the same languages, same applies for German and lower saxony "Plattdeutsch", the "old" German Gramar and the new one just differ in the way it is written, not in the spoken way.

So as I saied to differen pair of shoes and not comparable from my point of view.

However to answer your question: The reason why I am against adding it official is just the case of manually updating. So if you are really into it, felle free to write the launchpad guys :). At least I do not see a reason, why someone should generally be aginst adding a "Alte Deutsche Rechtschreibung" Translation.


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QCS
Joined: 2009-12-29, 22:47
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Posted at: 2010-06-08, 18:27

Well I can see the problem kraileth has. I believe this is not only about old grammar, but also the way sigra goes with Swedish - with a more advanced, more literal German, using maybe different styles for the tribe's "direct speech" in the dialogs (inventing dialect, maybe?), just to add "feeling". I'd also really like to see that for Widelands...


CMake is evil.

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kraileth
Joined: 2010-03-14, 16:34
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Posted at: 2010-06-08, 20:30

sigra wrote: Interesting issue. When I translated Freeciv to Swedish a decade ago, I used a somewhat older and more pleasing version, as used at the peak of the language from 1906 and the following half century (since then, Swedish has mostly degenerated, although the reform to address people with "du" is an improvement). Recently, reformers have changed the Freeciv translation. By the way, my German is from before the reform.

Yes, I think it's just the same that I want: Giving the game a more pleasing translation - today's everyday speach is getting pauperized more and more. Speaking of degeneration is probably not an exaggeration at all. While I'm planing to look into the Scandinavic languages for quite a while now, I did not find the time yet to learn some Swedish. However I jumped at it when the chance came to learn a little Norwegian. As far as I know, it's not been so long that De became obsolete and everybody uses du. Is it about the same thing in Sweden? The German language (or better: its usage!) has changed a lot since 1900. Back then it was common to use sie even for your parents and not just for people you don't know. Oh, and you used another form, ihr to address excellencies. face-wink.png In even older German you could also use third person sg. to address somebody who was lower in social rank...

Nasenbaer wrote:

I think these [Norwegian variants and Classic German] are two different pair of shoes Bokmål and Nynorsk are not the same languages, same applies for German and lower saxony "Plattdeutsch", the "old" German Gramar and the new one just differ in the way it is written, not in the spoken way. So as I saied to differen pair of shoes and not comparable from my point of view. However to answer your question: The reason why I am against adding it official is just the case of manually updating. So if you are really into it, felle free to write the launchpad guys . At least I do not see a reason, why someone should generally be aginst adding a "Alte Deutsche Rechtschreibung" Translation.

As far as I know, Bokmål and Nynorsk are actually the same language: Norsk/Norwegian. They are considered "written languages" and as such can be compared to new/old spelling in Germany. So my argument was that while Nynorsk is a written language in use by not that much people, it has it's own locale with widelands and Classig German, while being used by millions of people, doesn't. But please don't think I'm agains having locales like Nynorsk. I'm well aware of its national meaning it has for some Norwegians. But the same goes for Classic German. The policians asked the populance just like they did about introducing the Euro (read: NOT!) and many people detested the reforms from the beginning. I was actually pro reform in the beginning, but since it has become obvious that it's just another big step in destroying our language, I have changed sides and returned to the old spelling for some years now.

Alright, so if you were against it from a technical point of view, I can more than understand it. I think, I'll write to the launchpad people. If anybody is interested, I might well post my mail and a possible answer here.

QCS wrote: Well I can see the problem kraileth has. I believe this is not only about old grammar, but also the way sigra goes with Swedish - with a more advanced, more literal German, using maybe different styles for the tribe's "direct speech" in the dialogs (inventing dialect, maybe?), just to add "feeling". I'd also really like to see that for Widelands...

You're right on that one. There are for example many text strings where I think: No! A Barbarian would not use that expression! I have thought about changing the current German this way, but I think this would not be the best thing. The language level in today's schools is often enough just cruelly low. Many students tend to not understand complex language anymore - and I'm not talking about migrants but Germans whose native language is (I'm tempted to write: should be!) German...

The reason why I'm opposed to the "New" spelling is mainly because of its strange and actually substance-losing way of writing adjectives. But that's more of a personal liking, I guess.


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raistware
Joined: 2009-09-07, 17:31
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Posted at: 2010-06-10, 11:17

As far as I know, there exists allways some differents 'registers' on all languages (sorry I do not know how this is named on english). A 'register' is a different meaning for same words, that only takes this meaning o a certain group of people, something like 'argot', dialect...

The problem, at least on spanish, is that currently language is degenerating very fast (yes degerating and not evolving) a lot on nearly all register levels, only scientific and lawyer level don't degenerate. Every time more and more words loose his historical meaning being replaced with some words on argot. This is more troubled even on spanish, because we are importing all words and expresions from south america, expresions that for a spanish had not any meaning or spanish expresions are being replaced by south americans ones.

The fact is, it will be a nightmare to mantain different versions of translations of same language. At least I think that we need a lot more translator manpower to accomplish that work efficiently.

For exactly this 'New german' translation I am not with or against, I'm neutral, but I think that it is best to mantain only one version until we can not mantain the two translations completly updated efficiently.

My two cents.


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