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Topic: New map, balance, and questions

BoeseKaiser
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Joined: 2019-02-21, 11:03
Posts: 25
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Pry about Widelands
Posted at: 2019-07-10, 12:28

Hey everyone,

So I had this idea for a map and I decided to rush it and upload it (don't judge I'm not always patient ! ). it's called "tournament map good" (yeah, I rushed it so much, I didn't even upload the file with the right name...) . But only after did I realise that I might have underestimated a couple of things, especially balancing different tribes.

My concerns :

  • not enough game/fish for Empire and Frisians (they don't have infinite animal agriculture, right?)
  • not enough rocks for atlanteans : quartz and diamonds are gonna be really scarce. I did want for rocks to be a scarce ressource in this map (at least untill the end), but I didn't think of the atlanteans.
  • anything that you could think of that would especially benefit or hinder a given tribe

  • (generally speaking feedback is appreciated)

Well actually mostly that.

My questions :

  • Is there a reason why the max. tool size is 10?
  • is there a reason why the map files are not human readable? or did I just not find how to read them? text editor didn't work. I saw a couple of threads where people already asked if one could import the landmass form from an immage, but that didn't seem to be possible. Is there a way to have more infos about the maps files without reading the code?
  • Does anyone know an average ressources avilability per (map land / players)? so how much ore/game/fish on average per player per (land) square unit? (I think my map has many fish but few of basically everything else)
  • fish breeders cann't produce fish out of water, can gamekeeper produce animals out of thin air? (I think I asked that in an other comment as well)

Ideas in the air :

  • make tool size arbitrary big
  • make a "tool form" option for basic forms that scale -relatively- good. triangles, rectangles, stars, and circles shouldn't be that problematic
  • a copy-paste tool for parts of the map, potentially with mirror and rotations (I know, that have already been mentionned. But I'm lazy and I really could have used it for my last map, that I intend to make better anyways face-grin.png )
  • a terain that only accept small buildings (realistically it could be like a swamp, too wet to support heavy buildings, but the name swamp is already used) but that's rather game suggestion. (I sliped it here because I just thought of it)

Thanks everyone

Edited: 2019-07-10, 12:28

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Nordfriese
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Joined: 2017-01-17, 18:07
Posts: 506
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One Elder of Players
Location: 0x55555d3a34c0
Posted at: 2019-07-10, 12:53
  • Is there a reason why the max. tool size is 10?

It´s arbitrary. 10 has the advantage that you can access all sizes with the shortcuts 1-0. Bigger sizes can be allowed by changing one hardcoded value and recompiling, but it becomes much slower because so many fields are changed at once (I did that once and didn´t like it).

  • is there a reason why the map files are not human readable? or did I just not find how to read them? text editor didn't work. I saw a couple of threads where people already asked if one could import the landmass form from an immage, but that didn't seem to be possible. Is there a way to have more infos about the maps files without reading the code?

Use a hex/binary editor (e.g. GHex) to view and change them. You still need to ref the code though to understand the order of the many numbers. I once suggested to convert them to Lua, but apparently that would break map backwards compatibility and slow down map loading…

  • fish breeders cann't produce fish out of water, can gamekeeper produce animals out of thin air? (I think I asked that in an other comment as well)

Fish breeders need at least 1 fish left on a node to replenish fish there; gamekeeper really does produce them from thin air.

Ideas in the air :

  • make tool size arbitrary big

Would be nice, but as I said, slow. A "filling" tool for terrains would be useful though

  • make a "tool form" option for basic forms that scale -relatively- good. triangles, rectangles, stars, and circles shouldn't be that problematic
  • a copy-paste tool for parts of the map, potentially with mirror and rotations (I know, that have already been mentionned. But I'm lazy and I really could have used it for my last map, that I intend to make better anyways face-grin.png )

A big +1 for both of these

  • a terain that only accept small buildings (realistically it could be like a swamp, too wet to support heavy buildings, but the name swamp is already used) but that's rather game suggestion. (I sliped it here because I just thought of it)

+1, but might be non-trivial to implement (needs a new Is value at least)


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einstein13
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Joined: 2013-07-29, 00:01
Posts: 1093
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One Elder of Players
Location: Poland
Posted at: 2019-07-10, 13:59

BoeseKaiser wrote:

  • a copy-paste tool for parts of the map, potentially with mirror and rotations (I know, that have already been mentionned. But I'm lazy and I really could have used it for my last map, that I intend to make better anyways face-grin.png )

See that topic: https://www.widelands.org/forum/topic/1634/
In general, the idea is old and noone came with a good solution for that, because only rotations by n*60 degrees are allowed without any lose of quality.

  • a terain that only accept small buildings

The workaround for that is to make terrain with a big slopes, then you aren't allowed to build any big building on them. Just play with random terrain in different amplitude of height.


einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/

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king_of_nowhere
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Joined: 2014-09-15, 18:35
Posts: 1443
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One Elder of Players
Posted at: 2019-07-10, 15:23

einstein13 wrote:

  • a terain that only accept small buildings

The workaround for that is to make terrain with a big slopes, then you aren't allowed to build any big building on them. Just play with random terrain in different amplitude of height.

to expand: a medium building requires that all corners in a 2-steps radius have a height difference no greater than +/-2 compared to its tile, and the flag has a height difference no greater than 1. large buildings have the same requirements, but they also need that the corners in NE, NW and W are free, because those buildings fill 4 corners. small buildings have the same requirememnt for the flag, but then they just need that in a radius of 1 there is no height difference greater than 3. playing with those values, it's easy to make a terrain that cannot take large buildings.


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kaputtnik
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Joined: 2013-02-18, 20:48
Posts: 1769
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One Elder of Players
Location: Germany
Posted at: 2019-07-10, 20:44

BoeseKaiser wrote:

So I had this idea for a map and I decided to rush it and upload it (don't judge I'm not always patient ! ). it's called "tournament map good" (yeah, I rushed it so much, I didn't even upload the file with the right name...) . But only after did I realise that I might have underestimated a couple of things, especially balancing different tribes.

If you want to upload a new map, with a better name and maybe more balanced, i can remove the old map. Just send me a PM face-smile.png


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BoeseKaiser
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Joined: 2019-02-21, 11:03
Posts: 25
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Pry about Widelands
Posted at: 2019-07-10, 21:44

kaputtnik wrote: If you want to upload a new map, with a better name and maybe more balanced, i can remove the old map. Just send me a PM face-smile.png

Will do that eventually. I'll wait a bit see if I got feedback and if I can improove a couple of things on my own, and I'll write you.

einstein13 wrote:

BoeseKaiser wrote:

  • a copy-paste tool for parts of the map, potentially with mirror and rotations (I know, that have already been mentionned. But I'm lazy and I really could have used it for my last map, that I intend to make better anyways face-grin.png )

See that topic: https://www.widelands.org/forum/topic/1634/
In general, the idea is old and noone came with a good solution for that, because only rotations by n*60 degrees are allowed without any lose of quality.

I did read parts of the topic, and if I could probably follow the maths with a bit of effort, I'm way out of my league for the coding part. Still :

  • the copy paste should be relatively easy (?)
  • rotations of n*60 would already help quite a lot to make maps
  • even with border problems or such, even an approximative rotation that you can correct with toolsize 1 is much less work than making up to 6 times the same pattern (or even 2 for the symetry)
  • the size of objects to rotate can be limited to prevent overlap

I might be off, but I figured if we don't need to do it perfectly (it's a feature for creating game content, not part of the gameplay) it might make a lot of maths and programming issues irrelevant.

people wrote: things about the small building question

thanks for the details.


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the-x
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Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23
Posts: 137
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At home in WL-forums
Posted at: 2019-07-12, 15:53

I tested it sometime - very good idea, we need more maps like this

especially smaller tournament maps: - realisticly noone will play this to the end (ended with 2.500 soldiers but only on single player) there is gold and iron far too much but in mid and lategame you need coal - on the 3rd island put only coal, wondered why there was iron and then iron again

Indeed maps like this can lead to nice tournament games, do you have more ideas?


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king_of_nowhere
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Joined: 2014-09-15, 18:35
Posts: 1443
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One Elder of Players
Posted at: 2019-07-12, 17:08

the concept is very nice. i'm just a bit worried that it may be too long for human game, as going thrugh all the bracket and then colonizing the new strip of land and moving in there is going to be time consuming.


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BoeseKaiser
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Joined: 2019-02-21, 11:03
Posts: 25
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Pry about Widelands
Posted at: 2019-07-13, 12:52

Thanks for the feedbacks. I don't know if I modify this one or make a new one yet, but I'll make it better when I find the time.

New ideas - not yet. But when I get some, I'll make sure to implement them.


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the-x
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Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23
Posts: 137
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At home in WL-forums
Posted at: 2019-07-18, 21:45

We can play a testgame there, if we get 8 players - how can we organize that and when?

Edited: 2019-07-19, 19:20

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