Topic: main roads becoming normal again

hessenfarmer wrote:

Could you provide replays?

Not worthy. About half of my tests were done only to produce prints under various circumstances, to ensure that the numbers are the expected ones. So there is nothing interesting seeing in them, except of the boring logs. For the other half I opened side-by-side two instances of Widelands, one for each algorithm, loaded the same maps, did the same actions (e.g. create same road topologies), and watched how quickly and in what order the roads got promoted. So that half works only by comparison of performance. There is no other difference really. Finally, I had AIs filling the map with roads, as a stress test. That can be replayed by anyone.

GunChleoc wrote:

einstein13 wrote:

Is there any idea how to solve manual upgrade/downgrade of the road?

It is something worth thinking about

Micromanagement by the player here would need to be an option for good players

Further improving the automatic behavior has now become easy. But giving manual control is not a good idea, cause it will lead to always promoting as many roads as possible, defeating the whole concept (we could as well totally remove non-promoted roads from the game and achieve about the same effect). Hans Joachim Desserud said it nicely here.

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@einstein13

All your problems (and we all have the same) are due to the inefficiency of the old algorithm. The new algorithm adapts to sudden traffic much much faster (and it can become even faster if we change its specifications). A player could still gain a few initial seconds by manual handling, but this can and will get abused. In other words, your answer to Hans' concerns doesn't satisfy me.

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@ypopezios

Sudden traffic? So when I create a long bypass, will it change the state of it in a few seconds? If so - you're right. If not - you aren't.

Is your algorithm taking into account more than one piece of road at once (long bypasses)? Is it taking into account future usage of the road (fast expansion in the beginning)? Is it taking into account bottleneck in one place with huge traffic (ports)? If so - you're right.

einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/

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Ok, I sticked to the discussion a bit. Google translate helped (so I know what was about, but I can miss some details).

As I understand: old busyness model is tried to be replaced by wallet one. The basic logic (points for working) is still the same, but the interpretation (busyness -> wallet) and equations (how many points are for transport) are changed.

Of course I know that the numbers are double checked by king_of_nowhere and I agree that the new model can be more flexible than previous one. I don't argue with that. I just asked about consideration of expanding it by adding a feature of upgrading/downgrading the road.

Since the basic logic is the same, I would solve the manual upgrade by adding artificially points to the wallet. After adding, the carrier would be rich enough to buy an ox/... and the further logic wouldn't be hurt.

I am happy that you are bringing something new (or rather: upgraded) to the Widelands. But please consider that the old topic will be on the plate for a long time.

einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/

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WorldSavior wrote:

Why again is the wallet not only a new metaphor for grade of business?

The wallet metaphor is used only to help us come with a better model (let's say the wallet model). That model is superior in various ways:

• Simplifies the understanding (the familiar money concepts are easier to reason with than abstract concepts).

• Simplifies the calculations (there is no more need for guessing the right value of various factors).

• By achieving the above, it opens up new options for enhancing the game, in ways which were previously too complicated to consider (it can actually get expanded to solve almost all logistical problems in Widelands).

• In the given case of road promotion/demotion, the old model had no way of achieving the precision of the new model, and it even misbehaved under some circumstances.

WorldSavior wrote:

Are my questions not detailed enough?

For the specific questions I just indicated that I possess further details to cover them in depth, which I could share if a question indicated deep enough interest on the matter. So far I rarely get such questions, I mostly get concerns (too many of them, as unfortunately people focus much more on the problems than on the solutions). But meanwhile we have reached the point where people can test a working branch and witness the improvements for themselves.

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