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Topic: Barbarian Trainingscamp Remodel

Astuur
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Posted at: 2011-09-17, 11:53

Downloaded and integrated the new weapons and helmets and looked at a greenland savegame.
Some first impressions, Chuck:

The axes and helmets again appear somewhat blurred compared to the tools like hammer and scythe. (menu.pngs)
I am not sure if this is truly the case - it may well be only the reduced constrast from the darker shades of steel grey.
You may want to polish those axes up a bit, make them more shiny.
The bronze axe is almost not visible at all against the dark menu backgound, and its idle variant has the same problem with dark (swamp) terrain. The old "bronze" color may have been less realistic, but was better visible in this respect.
Also, I think we should try a much brighter type of wood for the shafts of all axes for a better visibility; seems fitting, too; after all those axes are brand new face-smile.png
Helmets: The simple helm can be most easily identified - the war helmet is hardly recognitable for what it is, the mask is in between. I am afraid the war helmet is already too detailed to give a clear impression. The wings hardly give any contrast due to the reflections, and the silver/gold mosaic is more confusing than helpful at this scale.
And forget about the antlers - this is hopeless. Again, I wished we had more resolution for this; the helmets really look very fine at higher magnitude.
You may upscale the menu.pngs a bit to better fill the available space, but that alone will not help. I think in the end we need to come up with something more "iconic" at least for the war helmet. Replacing all the silver in all melmets with a "metallic" Player color may do the trick. Can you try that?
I hope the shading does not darken the color too much. If It does, a non-metallic but polished surface might be better.
This may also be very helpful later when watching a battle.
I do righly guess that some day the barbarian soldiers will actually wear this very armour, don't I? face-smile.png
Can't wait to see it!
Remember that we once discussed making the bosses somewhat bigger than the rookies... so you may have a little "headroom" for the size of war helmets; it may help!


Being no programmer, I apologize for all my suggestions that imply undue workload and for other misjudgements due to lack of expertise or relevant skills.
I am on Win32, have no means to compile, and rely on prefabricated distributions (Thanks to Tino).

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hjd

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Posted at: 2011-09-17, 12:27

Have you thought about including animations of soldiers training in the training camp(/battle arena)? Could be interesting see some soldiers sparring a bit when the building is "working". Would be nice to see that they learn from doing something, not just hanging out in the building. Also, both buildings have cleared space for this purpose, and it would be a shame to not use it. face-wink.png

If you do decide to add this, I think would be a good idea to make the animations distinct from the regular battle animations rather than reuse. This way, players will be able to quickly tell the difference between training and an invasion when browsing their kingdom.


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chuckw
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Posted at: 2011-09-17, 17:55

Astuur wrote: The axes and helmets again appear somewhat blurred compared to the tools like hammer and scythe. (menu.pngs)

I am not sure if this is truly the case - it may well be only the reduced constrast from the darker shades of steel grey.

You may want to polish those axes up a bit, make them more shiny.

Yes, I saw this right away. I think the blurred impression may actually be due to the fact that the metal is already too shiny. I am considering reducing the reflectivity of the axe heads, possibly resorting to matte grays with shading to highlight the cutting edges of the weapons. The small scale of the image doesn't allow for much finesse.

The bronze axe is almost not visible at all against the dark menu backgound, and its idle variant has the same problem with dark (swamp) terrain. The old "bronze" color may have been less realistic, but was better visible in this respect.

I'm going to brass it up a bit, not too much though. Don't want it confused for GOLD. face-smile.png

Also, I think we should try a much brighter type of wood for the shafts of all axes for a better visibility; seems fitting, too; after all those axes are brand new

Agreed, the dark handles are difficult to discern in the menus and almost impossible on the roads. Speaking of the menus, I will crop and enlarge all the images I can for the menu icons to help there.

Helmets: The simple helm can be most easily identified - the war helmet is hardly recognitable for what it is, the mask is in between. I am afraid the war helmet is already too detailed to give a clear impression. The wings hardly give any contrast due to the reflections, and the silver/gold mosaic is more confusing than helpful at this scale.

And forget about the antlers - this is hopeless. Again, I wished we had more resolution for this; the helmets really look very fine at higher magnitude.

I will play with the scale of the helmets a bit and maybe try different orientations to get a better profile. The gold wings of the warhelmet are destined to be playercolor. For the mask, I am considering either making the banding on the helmet metal and the plates playercolor or vice versa. I would like to avoid a "beanie" look, though. I don't want to change too much of the basic helm as it is currently seen throughout the game on the soldiers.

You may upscale the menu.pngs a bit to better fill the available space, but that alone will not help. I think in the end we need to come up with something more "iconic" at least for the war helmet. Replacing all the silver in all melmets with a "metallic" Player color may do the trick. Can you try that?

I hope the shading does not darken the color too much. If It does, a non-metallic but polished surface might be better.

This may also be very helpful later when watching a battle.

I'll try it, but I don't expect great results. The way the PlayerColor material is rendered in the game results in the loss of specularity and reflectivity. Shading on the original areas is extremely muted.

I do righly guess that some day the barbarian soldiers will actually wear this very armour, don't I?

Can't wait to see it!

Since the battle animation was completed, there hasn't been much recent dialogue concerning the military aspect of the game. While there is a possibility that more differentiated appearances between soldiers of different training levels will be pursued beyond the status indicators above their heads, it must take a secondary priority to issues more central to the economic focus of the game. Again, our intent with Widelands is not to glorify military conflict, but acknowledge it as a sometimes necessary means to the end of expansion. The axes and helms are elements in the economies, just like coal and iron. It's easy when working with their details to get our imaginations caught up with their romantic nature (the weapons, that is) and lose focus of the priorities. (That happens to me ALL of the time as this shows.) face-smile.png

Remember that we once discussed making the bosses somewhat bigger than the rookies... so you may have a little "headroom" for the size of war helmets; it may help!

"Headroom"... funny. Be warned, you're beginning to sound like me. face-smile.png

hjd wrote: Have you thought about including animations of soldiers training in the training camp(/battle arena)? Could be interesting see some soldiers sparring a bit when the building is "working". Would be nice to see that they learn from doing something, not just hanging out in the building. Also, both buildings have cleared space for this purpose, and it would be a shame to not use it.

Yes, I have thought about it and would like to see it, too. It will wait until we get the rest of the building models completed and their building sequences, however. Once those are in place, it is my intent to tackle the working animations of all of the buildings.

If you do decide to add this, I think would be a good idea to make the animations distinct from the regular battle animations rather than reuse. This way, players will be able to quickly tell the difference between training and an invasion when browsing their kingdom.

Good thinking. Say, do you think barbarians marched in close order drill? face-smile-big.png


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chuckw
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Posted at: 2011-09-17, 23:40

Updates to the axes, mask and warhelmet have been pushed to https://code.launchpad.net/~chuckw20/widelands/Barbarian_Axes_and_Helms if you want to try them out.
I added PlayerColor to the mask and warhelmet, made the axe handles a lighter color and tweaked the axeheads.


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Astuur
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Posted at: 2011-09-18, 14:17

Got your 5982 Version, ha - bzr works face-smile.png
Brought the new files into the game, switched back to 640x480. (can even see now, that the wood goes right through the axe heads face-smile.png

So, here are my observation:

The size of the items in the menu is much better - I think the is the optimum now.
The new orientation of the helmet has helped much here, and the resize of the axes menu pngs is perfect too.
Axes: Again you were right (not that I am surprised...)- "overpolished". They look like painted with a transparent varnish and appear like a mirror, instead they should look like brushed metal rather. This, together with the lighting in the scene seems to result in a rendering that reflects the light elswhere, but not into the camera - so they appear a little too dark. You can see this well with the sharp axe, where the spike does reflect the light into the right direction.
Not knowing Blender well, I do not know what you have available. In sum, the metal surface must not be too smooth, but consist of small scratches rather than a mirror-like surface. I think, changing the reflectiveness for only the cutting edge (the sharpened area) would be better than doing so for all the metal block. You may want to expand this area a bit, maybe.
BTW: Axe, felling axe and broad axe show a shadowy area that should not be there, given the usual form of an axe head - or do I look at it the wrong way?
The bronze axe: Looks like you have a different picture in mind. My bronze would be something like this this, brand new, not tarnished by long years of wear. But bronze can look so many ways, that you're absolutely free to choose as long as it is well visible and does not look like iron or gold. So let see your version of bronze face-smile.png This axe has a nice, sturdy handle.
Shafts: Yes, the lighter color is easier to see. For the menu this looks very nice now. It is a bit strange, that the shafts get lighter the longer they are... got a light down there in the rendering scene, I guess face-smile.png Personally I would have gone for the color of new Ash wood the preferred wood for shafts in Europe of old. There is a bit of a visibilty problem againsta wooden background (Training sites)
Helmets: I think the helmet could be a little more reflective in both the menu and idle picture alike. I thought a moment about altering the direction of the hornes downward and forward a bit, but I am not sure. Ideally it would match the helmets lying around in the helmsmithy.
I very much like the mask in player color. Perfect, I'd say. The war helmet still is a bit tricky to indentify. The menu picture works okay for me, but out on the roads it is smaller and harder to see. For one thing it doesn't have a player color yet, for another it has this detailed and relatively complicated shape.
The idle.pngs in the game still seem quite dark. All in all I must say that the wares from a barbarian war mill are not easily spottet on the roads, or identified, when they are made. Helmets are easier of course. I find it also a bit difficult (for the axes) to see in the trainingscamp if this is the "placeholder" that I see, or the real thing.
A bit off topic: The helmsmith wears a blue jacket no matter what your player color is. Is this by design (like the hunters)?
Okay -- so this is what I saw and thought face-smile.png
Hope I didn't sound inappropiately critical; I am very thankful for the dedicated work you do.


Being no programmer, I apologize for all my suggestions that imply undue workload and for other misjudgements due to lack of expertise or relevant skills.
I am on Win32, have no means to compile, and rely on prefabricated distributions (Thanks to Tino).

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chuckw
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Posted at: 2011-09-18, 20:07

Astuur wrote: Axes: Again you were right (not that I am surprised...)- "overpolished". They look like painted with a transparent varnish and appear like a mirror, instead they should look like brushed metal rather. I think, changing the reflectiveness for only the cutting edge (the sharpened area) would be better than doing so for all the metal block. You may want to expand this area a bit, maybe. BTW: Axe, felling axe and broad axe show a shadowy area that should not be there, given the usual form of an axe head - or do I look at it the wrong way?

It is the result of the lighting in the rendering of the Blender model. I don't want to alter the lighting or other features of the rendering stage, so in consideration of the final scale of the axes in the game and to address the points you mention, I'm going to dispense with the reflective "realistic" metal material and aim for clarity with solid non-reflective colors. A bright, shiny metallic surface is easily appreciated in a 400x400 rendered image, but those nuances become liabilities when that image is scaled to 24x24 pixels and smaller.

The bronze axe: Looks like you have a different picture in mind. My bronze would be something like this this, brand new, not tarnished by long years of wear. But bronze can look so many ways, that you're absolutely free to choose as long as it is well visible and does not look like iron or gold. So let see your version of bronze This axe has a nice, sturdy handle.

We'll see what I can achieve with my matte color approach.

Shafts: Yes, the lighter color is easier to see. For the menu this looks very nice now. It is a bit strange, that the shafts get lighter the longer they are... got a light down there in the rendering scene, I guess Personally I would have gone for the color of new Ash wood the preferred wood for shafts in Europe of old. There is a bit of a visibilty problem againsta wooden background (Training sites)

I'll give your ash handles a try.

Helmets: I think the helmet could be a little more reflective in both the menu and idle picture alike. I thought a moment about altering the direction of the hornes downward and forward a bit, but I am not sure.

Here again the helmet metal material in Blender is actually highly reflective, but the lighting and angles misrepresent it as a dull gray. Also, inasmuch as the helm is already prevalent in the existing soldier model animations, I am not inclined to alter the general image greatly. The horns will stay where they are. face-smile.png

Ideally it would match the helmets lying around in the helmsmithy.

Sure.

The war helmet still is a bit tricky to indentify. The menu picture works okay for me, but out on the roads it is smaller and harder to see. For one thing it doesn't have a player color yet, for another it has this detailed and relatively complicated shape.

Actually the warhelmet does have playercolor on the wings. You are right that it remains hard to identify on the roads. I'll rethink the design and material.

The idle.pngs in the game still seem quite dark. All in all I must say that the wares from a barbarian war mill are not easily spottet on the roads, or identified, when they are made. Helmets are easier of course. I find it also a bit difficult (for the axes) to see in the trainingscamp if this is the "placeholder" that I see, or the real thing.

I agree. We'll see what effect the solid colors have on visibility and identification.

A bit off topic: The helmsmith wears a blue jacket no matter what your player color is. Is this by design (like the hunters)?

I did not model the helmsmithy. However, as I canvass the barbarian buildings I will address the playercolor issue when I get to that building.

Okay -- so this is what I saw and thought
Hope I didn't sound inappropiately critical; I am very thankful for the dedicated work you do.

You raise valid points as always and I thank you for your fine critiques. Now, it is time to take some of the shine off those new axes. face-wink.png


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hjd

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Posted at: 2011-09-18, 20:40

Say, do you think barbarians marched in close order drill?

I have a sneaky suspicion they didn't. :p Without really knowing a lot about the matter, I would rather imagine they simply gathered together in a group and just charged their enemy. You might want to save that idea for the Empire though. Sounds a bit more like something they would do.

I have thought a bit more about what sort of training the buildings offer and what sort of animations might be appropriate. The training camp requires various forms of weapons and armor, and the animations should probably reflect that by displaying some soldiers sparring with various equipment. I am not sure how many would fit, but the ones who are present should be wielding different armor and axes, I think. In the battle arena the soldiers can train their evade skill. I think an animation of brawling or wrestling would be appropriate here. Both because evade would benefit from increasing agility and dodging, but it would also make sense as a barbarian activity. I think these animations should be possible while still keeping in line with the ethic requirements for content (no explicit violence needed).

I also briefly thought that it would make a lot more sense if we could have swapped the buildings. Especially since the battle arena looks like it was build for gladiators, which would explain use of lots of different weapons and armor. Though since they are not used for training evade, it would not be appropriate. Though flipping the buildings would be a major change, both in terms of people relearning how they work but also dealing with savegames (which I don't really think could be handled in a sane way) so I would be against it. Another thing is that the Colosseum of the Empire is probably also built for gladiators to a much larger degree.

Oh, and I really look forward to work animations for all buildings.


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Venatrix
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Posted at: 2011-09-18, 20:43

Astuur wrote: A bit off topic: The helmsmith wears a blue jacket no matter what your player color is. Is this by design (like the hunters)?

I had a short look into the folders of the helmsmith and the smithy itself. The helmsmith walks in playercolours, but you’re right, when he’s working, he wears blue. That surely wasn’t intended by whoever animated him…


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chuckw
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Posted at: 2011-09-18, 22:35

This time I didn't exactly go with matte surfaces for the axeheads, but dulled and darkened the shading and added a different texture. The bronzeaxe has had another "facial". :) I have applied the ash woodgrain texture to the handles and added some "leather" wrappings and metal pommels in some cases.
Here are the idle and menu files for these:
axe: axe i axe m battleaxe: battle i battle m broadaxe: broad i broad m bronzeaxe: bronze i bronze m felling axe: felling i felling m sharpaxe: sharp i sharp m warriorsaxe: war i war m
I'm tempted to enlarge the idle images for better visibility on the road, but give these a spin and I'd like to hear your comments. BTW - you can use the same hot spots for these as we did for my last batch.


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chuckw
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Posted at: 2011-09-19, 18:52

Again,concerning just the axes, I have dispensed with the striped wrappings on the handles in favor of solid and gave the bronze axe ANOTHER facial. face-smile.png
I would like opinions on these two sets of MENU images. Both are of the same models, but in the first, the objects are angled away from the camera (and main light source). In the second, they are fully perpendicular to the camera.
oblique: axes_angle perpendicular: axes straight
One can immediately see the difference that just the orientation to the camera and light source can have in the appearance. Personally, I favor the brighter look of the "perpendicular" set. Which do you like best, the "oblique" or the "perpendicular"?

I have toyed with sizing the axes menu images in relation to one another as seen here:
axe_rel, but I feel it makes it more difficult to identify the images.
In any case, it is still nearly impossible to discern in the first two images that the carrier (next to the deer) is carrying a felling_axe, or anything for that matter. I have tried making the axeheads all black with a metallic honed edge. You could then see that something was there, but it was still difficult to identify what it was let alone what type of axe it could be.

I will render a set of over-sized idle files for the axes and make them available for testing. It is important to remember that the goal of the game is effective management of your wares. That in my opinion is more important than realistic scaling. IMHO, quick and easy identification of the wares on the road should be our goal here.

Comments?


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