Currently Online

Latest Posts

Topic: French Widelands website

Jaypad
Avatar
Joined: 2015-12-12, 10:59
Posts: 40
Ranking
Pry about Widelands
Location: France
Posted at: 2016-01-04, 20:52

Hello guys.

This week-end, we worked on translations of the game description page. It's really a good thing, it will help to get more people here. However, we saw the limitations of the system: each page needs its "language navigation bar", we can't easily navigate in a particular language, and, as we translate existing pages, we can't heavily modify the translated pages. Also, we can't create new pages without creating first the english one, and we can't translate the wiki because it is mostly obsolete (as some members said, I didn't read it).

In an other topic, I had asked for an easier system to translate the website. Ok, it's too much hard work, and time is best spent working on the game.

So, we have two options : staying at this state, or doing something. I strongly prefer do something than wait while others work.

Vassili and I talked together, few weeks ago, to make our own french Widelands website. The recent efforts to translate some stuff - just one page! - comforts us in this way: we must do a whole french website. Fortunately, we get the skills to create this website without disturbing too much the dev team. This will make the game more open to french people, who is known to be really lazy at english learning.

So, we have a request : can you create for us a fr. subdomain (fr.widelands.org) to let us create a whole french website, please?

We have just one goal : drag more french people to our community. Obviously, forum will redirect on existing french forum, because we just want the french community grows, not divide it.


Top Quote
Vassili
Avatar
Joined: 2013-10-12, 19:19
Posts: 169
Ranking
At home in WL-forums
Location: France
Posted at: 2016-01-04, 20:57

"Copyright © 2009 - 2015 By the Widelands Development Team "

We also ask if we can use pictures and textures (and maybe some CSS) from widelands.org


Top Quote
SirVer
Joined: 2009-02-19, 15:18
Posts: 1439
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Location: Germany - Munich
Posted at: 2016-01-04, 22:45

Could you outline what you plan to host on that domain? Will that be a static site only? If not, what software do you want to run there? Will you require a database?

I applaud your enthusiasm, but my first inclination is to say that it is not feasible to give subdomains to each language. There are technical reasons for that. For example the hosting stack needs maintenance, who is going to do that? Technology stack of the different language sub-pages will diverge, who consolidates that in the end? Who guarantees that information is synced? Who deals with backup and access control?

But there are also legal reasons: as an owner of the widelands.org domain I am responsible of what is hosting on it. If I give subdomains out, I will be responsible for content that is out of my control.

About the copyright: The website is GPLed as is Widelands. You can reuse the assets for everything as long as you also open source your efforts. That means if you want to make a separate website, you have to have it in a public repository, but then you can use Wideland's assets. There are actually fan sites of Widelands that reuse our theme, and that is perfectly fine as long as the source is available.

The website is open source and support for translation can be added to the Wiki by any Django developer. It will still not be as flexible as a stand alone web site, but I still think that is a preferable solution. Alternatively, we could kill the Wiki and instead write the pages that we want to have in some text based format. This could then be translated on transifex like the rest of Widelands and we would have a consistent experience in every language. What do you think?

Edited: 2016-01-06, 12:16

Top Quote
Vassili
Avatar
Joined: 2013-10-12, 19:19
Posts: 169
Ranking
At home in WL-forums
Location: France
Posted at: 2016-01-04, 23:08

SirVer wrote:

Will that be a static site only?

No, dynamic one.

If not, what software do you want to run there?

What? I use Apache with PHP for run the website, but i don't understand what you mean.

Will you require a database?

I will use mySQL

We ask a redirection of a sub-domain, not a hosting.

I applaud your enthusiasm, but my first inclination is to say that it is not feasible to give subdomains to each language. There are technical reasons for that.

Cough cough Lie detected

For example the hosting stack needs maintenance, who is going to do that?

I don't understand what you call "hosting stack", sorry.

Technology stack of the different language sub-pages will diverge, who consolidates that in the end? Who guarantees that information is synced? Who deals with backup and access control?

We speak of making a french dedicated website, not just a page translation of your wiki, and i think you write all that with thinking we ask an hosting.

But there are also legal reasons: as an owner of the widelands.org domain I am responsible of what is hosting on it. If I give subdomains out, I will be responsible for content that is out of my control.

We will host, no problem on that.

About the copyright: The website is GPLed as is Widelands. You can reuse the assets for everything as long as you also open source your efforts. That means if you want to make a separate website, you have to have it in a public repository, but then you can use Wideland's assets. There are actually fan sites of Widelands that reuse our theme, and that is perfectly fine as long as the source is available.

Widelands.org say "Copyright © 2009 - 2015", not "content of this site is under GPL License".

About saying we must do a website under GPL License, i think you still speak of the only case we do it on your server; because nothing forbid to speak of libre things like we will.

The website is open source and support for translation can be added to the Wiki by any Django developer. It will still not be as flexible as a stand alone web site, but I still think that is a preferable solution. Alternatively, we could kill the Wiki and instead write the pages that we want to have in some text based format. This could then be translated on transifex like the rest of Widelands and we would have a consistent experience in every language. What do you think?

I let Jaypad answer to that.


Top Quote
SirVer
Joined: 2009-02-19, 15:18
Posts: 1439
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Location: Germany - Munich
Posted at: 2016-01-04, 23:26

Cough cough Lie detected

That is rather offensive :(. I do not think I deserved that, being called a lier. I wonder if I offended you in any way so that you lash out at me? If so, I apologize.

Back to topic, I misunderstood your request. And frankly rereading the initial post there is no request for a redirect, but for a subdomain - that sounds still like hosting to me. So I do not feel too bad of not getting what you want.

Widelands.org say "Copyright © 2009 - 2015", not "content of this site is under GPL License".

One thing does not make the other untrue - we hold the copyright, but we also have it under the GPL license which states what others are allowed to do with it.

We will host, no problem on that.

Redirecting does not change the situation though. The host will still be under widelands.org, so I am still legally responsible. Redirecting makes this even more pronounced, because I have no control over the site at all - I cannot even take it down if some authority (i.e. police) requests that. I will not do that, sorry.

About saying we must do a website under GPL License, i think you still speak of the only case we do it on your server; because nothing forbid to speak of libre things like we will.

I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is that if you use GPL assets in a product (a web site), you have to make the source of this product available. But frankly, I consider it doubtful that we will go after you if you do not open source it - there are better ways to spend time.

Edited: 2016-01-04, 23:27

Top Quote
einstein13
Avatar
Joined: 2013-07-29, 00:01
Posts: 1076
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Location: Poland
Posted at: 2016-01-04, 23:34

The easiest solution for everything you want to do is to create working copy of Widelands page to any domain you have/want. Linking your new (unofficial) page to official one will be very easy then.


einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/

Top Quote
Vassili
Avatar
Joined: 2013-10-12, 19:19
Posts: 169
Ranking
At home in WL-forums
Location: France
Posted at: 2016-01-04, 23:42

Back to topic, I misunderstood your request. And frankly rereading the initial post there is no request for a redirect, but for a subdomain - that sounds still like hosting to me. So I do not feel too bad of not getting what you want.

I do not said you was answering out of what we ask, cause me too i realized you can understand we ask an hosting if i don't add precisions.

We will host, no problem on that.

Redirecting does not change the situation though. The host will still be under widelands.org, so I am still legally responsible. Redirecting makes this even more pronounced, because I have no control over the site at all - I cannot even take it down if some authority (i.e. police) requests that. I will not do that, sorry.

cough cough Are you saying the owner of .org is responsible for what you do on widelands.org? Seriously? And what about the . (root of domain names)?

About saying we must do a website under GPL License, i think you still speak of the only case we do it on your server; because nothing forbid to speak of libre things like we will.

I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is that if you use GPL assets in a product (a web site), you have to make the source of this product available. But frankly, I consider it doubtful that we will go after you if you do not open source it - there are better ways to spend time.

I mean, if we do a website, without your textures and CSS.

i found it's pretty amazing that people who dislike using "libre" word cause of it's sense, speak of the GPL forcing that stay under GPL.

Edited: 2016-01-04, 23:46

Top Quote
Vassili
Avatar
Joined: 2013-10-12, 19:19
Posts: 169
Ranking
At home in WL-forums
Location: France
Posted at: 2016-01-04, 23:49

einstein13 wrote:

The easiest solution for everything you want to do is to create working copy of Widelands page to any domain you have/want. Linking your new (unofficial) page to official one will be very easy then.

It's pretty near of what we ask: a redirection to our own website, with possibility of using some graphics of widelands.org .

But using Widelands.org graphics is no longer asked.

We ask a redirection of fr.widelands.org , for do not use another domain name.

Edited: 2016-01-04, 23:51

Top Quote
SirVer
Joined: 2009-02-19, 15:18
Posts: 1439
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Location: Germany - Munich
Posted at: 2016-01-05, 00:37

cough cough Are you saying the owner of .org is responsible for what you do on widelands.org? Seriously? And what about the . (root of domain names)?

That is my understanding of the current German law, yes. I am not a lawyer, so that might be wrong. But it is very much my interpretation of my responsibilities of a domain owner though, so I will not link a subdomain to a server I do not control.

i found it's pretty amazing that people who dislike using "libre" word cause of it's sense, speak of the GPL forcing that stay under GPL.

Well, that is pretty much the purpose of the GPL and it's creation. The game is GPLed - it is not BSD or Apache licensed - on purpose. 'Libre' does not mean anything to me - i.e. I cannot say what I would or would not expect to be allowed to do - but the license is very precise. I also do not understand what you consider 'libre', but again GPL is precise. We choose GPL also on purpose: A lot of people put a lot of work into Widelands - it is great that this work can be reused, but it can never be not freely available. And that is intentional.

Back to topic: My initial suggestion of making content translatable was not discussed. I think it works for the game, it might work for the website. I find having the same content in all languages is a benefit, a fractioning into different independent sub sites seems like a step backwards to me.


Top Quote
Vassili
Avatar
Joined: 2013-10-12, 19:19
Posts: 169
Ranking
At home in WL-forums
Location: France
Posted at: 2016-01-05, 00:41

Is your suggestion make possible to navigate on the whole website in the same language? I mean without choosing his language on every pages.


Top Quote