Topic: [experimental tribe] Hebrews

As for the tribe, my suggestions are:

• The bricks should be added: Bricks should be the main building material (production costs: 2 clay + 2 branch = 2 brick), granite should be a rather rare building material and should not be produced by brick kiln
• Training camp should cost also 2 gold leaves or menorah, build costs of all building should be optimized
• Threshing floor should be a big building not mine. If there should be another mine production site, I would suggest winery
• Small army tent should cost you only 3 items, I would remove one cloth. I would also consider increasing the capacity to 4 soldiers (not sure whether 3 soldiers are enough), it really depends on how strong the basic soldier should be
• Gold should be added and should be smelted in smelting works as well as copper
• For gold and copper production you definitely need coal not branches. A clay furnace duplicates smelting works, it should produce coal instead of copper, you may need probably 5 branches or 5 logs or any combination these to produce one lump of coal
• To produce one copper you should need 2 pieces of ore, the consumption of copper ore is too low
• Both gold mines should consume wine to produce gold
• The rebbe and geologist should be two different workers, rebbe should not use hammer
• Talmid and talmid chacham should not be buildable, they should be educated in Yeshiva only
• One sheep should give you 2 pieces of wool and only 1 meat instead 
• All training levels should cost you meat or fish and all mines should consume not only bread but meat or fish too. If you don't do this superfluous meat and fish will probably accumulate in your warehouses. I still didn't try it in a real game but based on my calculations, the tribe should produce much more meat than it is able to consume 
• Both levels of attack training should cost you a dagger, slingshot can be used for recruitment only
• I would remove menorah from training and replace it with a new training item something like golden tallit. This should cost you 2 gold leaves, 2 zizit and one cloth. This change should allow you to make also normal tallit cheaper 2 zizit and one cloth
• Cheaper tallit may be used for EV2 training and tefilin (which costs you gold and log) for EV3 training
• Fishing rod should cost you yarn too or maybe better should be replaced with fishing net (cost 2 pieces of yarn only)
• Ship may cost logs too, it might be 5 logs and 5 branches instead of 10 branches, the hebrew ship will be still cheap (14 items) but when you don't have logs it is getting more expensive
• As for soldier parameters I found this option: ATmin 850 ATmax 1450 ATincr 1040, HE 5200  HEincr 6400 (or 3200 for 4 grade training), EV 40 EVincr 9, DE 20. HE level1 soldier should be equally strong as basic soldiers of other tribes. So the balancing should be much easier. Hero is equally strong as heroes of other tribes only Lutas' Atlanteans have a hero a bit stronger but nothing tragic
• All buildings should be moved to the left and down, the pictures are out of place
• I would also suggest rearrangement of the ware and worker tables to make them more compact, you can see my suggestion on the picture

To make the tribe work through add-on, you will need to have also a world add-on. The same way the Sumatrans have their world add-on. Because you can't add attributes to critters in tribe add-ons. But you probably already know this. I know the add-on is still in progress, so I'm sorry, if I duplicate any new ideas you have or you are already working on. I still hope that you may find some of my suggestions useful. There are many innovations and new ideas so I like the tribe a lot. I've played just one short game so far, but I am looking forward to play a longer one soon.

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Hi @OIPUN.

WOW. I'm overwhelmed of this constructive feedback, especially the balancing hints. Both - take away pressure from the wool logistics desaster (by design!), aswell as the solution with the bricks. I modified it a bit such that bricks can either be made from granite or clay+firewood. But the historically correct version would be air-dried bricks on a big place. I also go with the tent cost - but I'd prefer to leave it to 3 soldiers only. Tents are for discovery of wide planes; military might comes from Massada. The basic soldiers are very weak (1 barbarian kills 2 hebrew rookies) so the tent can withstand a single attacker. About the balancing: I find it a challenge to have weaker rookies which forces you to invest into fast economy rampup. As a balance, Hebrews can skip mountain hills with their Massada building which makes them sneaky and good hide&seek players. In the worst case, you can't reach their Massada because you don't have a castle building spot and you have to wait until they make a mistake or come out of their hideout. A scout can also help to find their hiding places.

As you suggested, I will increase the gold cost for Yeshiva+Training Camp even further; This makes ramping up the economy output a "decision".

That the threshing floor is a mine is historically correct because a threshing floor must be on top of a mountain in order to get enough wind for the threshing. An AI hotfix for wine+threshing floor is submitted as PR.

The training site is already built from wood which costs gold but I can add a menorah, too.

I already fixed the dependencies of the world changes (instead of adding attribute:kosher to sheep, I made shepherd search for name=sheep)

I disagree with the gold smelting. Hebrews can harvest fine gold and you can simply hammer it into the right shape if you are a skilled handyman.

I wanted to reduce the complexity for coal mining since the whole wool and cloth industry is space consuming and hard enough.

The rebbe=Geologist concept is part of the training cycle: the higher educated a worker is, the more complex tasks he can do. This adds an additional dynamic. I will ofcourse rework the graphics once the basics are set.

Ships are expensive enough. Cloth is hard to produce - a disadvantage in seafaring. If it costs gold (=logs), too, it would be unfair.

@Ron_of_Nord: I know it's a ranged weapon. The engine does not support ranged weapons. So we have to stick to melee fights. Since soldiers are relatively cheap, they in return are weaker than an axe swinging enemy.

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Hi Carli, that looks great. Any chance to get the tribe into the AddOns soon?

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carli2 wrote

It should be uploaded now (3 days quarantine is over)

unfortunatly it is not. Or at least I can't find it. I reloaded multiple times.

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Thanks for the hints, after some close-restart-reloads I found the Add-on.

I tried some maps with the Hebrew the last days. The tribe looks quite intresting but needs some adjustments, as OIPUN already stated. What I found is that

• after some time you run out of workers because Talmid is not trained anymore due to missing Katan which is not produced anymore because of ... to make it short, the production chain ist too long and requires to much resources for workers which are needed for most of the production buildings.

• the soldiers are to weak. Against the Atlanteans a hero loses when fighting against 2-3 rekruts

• heros are to expensive to train

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