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Topic: Ranked map pool

trimard
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Joined: 2009-03-05, 22:40
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Posted at: 2019-11-09, 15:27

I know it's the third topic about ranking, but if I put everything in the same tread it will become unmanageable I think.

So progress is getting slow to automatize things. But the ranking is currently working and we could go one step further in the good direction here:

We select a few maps which we think are balanced for 1vs1 matchup and that we like. The goal is to rotate this pools relatively frequently, every 3 or 6 months?

Why a map pool?

  • Easier to decide which map for two players

  • Balanced map

  • Motivation to try different map than usual

Questions

  • How to decide? Could we make a pool with a certain number of choices? Don't know the limitation of the pool system currently. Got the idea from seeing the current pool being made, which is a nice feature btw. We should use it more often!

  • How many maps? 5? 10? I think the less the more relevant. And even more as there are very few games being played currently, so players don't really have the time to get bored of the current maps.

  • Ideas of maps? face-smile.png


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king_of_nowhere
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Joined: 2014-09-15, 18:35
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Posted at: 2019-11-09, 19:11

why roitate the maps? if a map is good, it can stay there

Edited: 2019-11-09, 19:11

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trimard
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Joined: 2009-03-05, 22:40
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Posted at: 2019-11-09, 21:45

So that people test different maps with time. It's also rewarding to the map creator to have their map in the pool. And if the pool is small, this makes even more sense.

Of course, we can very well rotate only part of the maps, and keep for a few season a map that is very appreciated, yes!

I think that could be entirely decided by vote: if people like a map, they will continue to vote for it.


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einstein13
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Joined: 2013-07-29, 00:01
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Posted at: 2019-11-10, 22:28

I think that the idea that the map can stay in the pool is a good one. But the problem is how to implement the automation between static Widelands application and dynamic pool of maps. Will it be some kind of automatic update? That can be hard, because not all players are likely to be connected to the Internet. Of course, when trying to play multiplayer - yes. So there are some parts of this idea:

  • What are the rules to create and update pool of official (balanced) maps?
  • How it can be implemented (to be easy to maintain and use)?
  • How it will impact the Widelands application? How it will impact the game itself?
  • What happen if any of the implemented parts will fail?

einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/

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WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
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Posted at: 2019-11-16, 17:44

einstein13 wrote:

I think that the idea that the map can stay in the pool is a good one.

Me too

trimard wrote:

But the ranking is currently working and we could go one step further in the good direction here:

Good news that the ranking is working. Can you show us?

  • How many maps? 5? 10? I think the less the more relevant. And even more as there are very few games being played currently, so players don't really have the time to get bored of the current maps.

Depends on how many maps are good face-wink.png

  • Ideas of maps? face-smile.png

Yes, for example:

  • Together we are strong (If both players conquer 1 island each, the match is draw if autocrat)
  • the taw, red vs yellow
  • three warriors
  • elven forests, red vs yellow
  • swamp monks, east vs west
  • four castles, no idea about colors
  • big lake, green vs blue, black vs blue, black vs red
  • the nile, symmetric starting conditions
  • Ice wars, blue vs ochre

“It's a threat to our planet to believe that someone else will save it.” - Robert Swan

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trimard
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Joined: 2009-03-05, 22:40
Posts: 223
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Posted at: 2019-11-17, 22:40

einstein13 wrote:

I think that the idea that the map can stay in the pool is a good one. But the problem is how to implement the automation between static Widelands application and dynamic pool of maps. Will it be some kind of automatic update? That can be hard, because not all players are likely to be connected to the Internet. Of course, when trying to play multiplayer - yes. So there are some parts of this idea:

  • What are the rules to create and update pool of official (balanced) maps?
  • How it can be implemented (to be easy to maintain and use)?
  • How it will impact the Widelands application? How it will impact the game itself?
  • What happen if any of the implemented parts will fail?

I think these question are way too soon. I think we should keep the game and the website separated as long as the ranking system isn't working as intended on the forum. Another reason, is that if this new feature prove not bring that many players as was expected, I don't want to waste too much of others people time.

Now knowing that, I can still answer what I think we should do if we automatize things face-tongue.png .

  • Create and update should be done as much as people wish, and every map are voted on a pool. that way, no need for crazy rules. Just let people vote for maps they want to play :).
  • Maps will be updated by the arbiter. I think in a dedicated page? Or maybe just use the admin page. It can be easy to use for such task.
  • The real question as to how the game will be modified, will probably the last. I do think the UI of the multiplayer will have to be changed a lot at that point.
  • Yes, Another reason why we shouldn't rush the automatization are the potential for failure. At least if the system on the website bug. People can still play games!

Good news that the ranking is working. Can you show us?

Well last visible update I posted in the appropriate topic. But since then most change were "invisible".

What do you want me to show you? An updated tournament? I wait for more games, because that's kind of lot of work. I have to redo all the maps, as I destroy the db pretty often.

Thanks for the maps propositions Worldsavior, it's a good start. I wouldn't vote for three warrior personally though. I struggle too much with wood face-tongue.png

edit: Realized I didn't really answered Einstein's questions

If everythings goes as planned, how I would see the UI in multiplayer is:

  • Add a "create ranked game" where you can crete a game that only contains the maps of the pool. Or maybe map should be random from the pool, and players discover the map when game starts? face-smile.png

  • Game is automatically registered at end of the game where the data are sent to the server

Edited: 2019-11-17, 23:35

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gnarfk
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Joined: 2015-01-05, 16:18
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Posted at: 2019-11-23, 13:39

Long time ago, i used to play Starcraft II online. In the ranked games pool, you click on a button "play a 1v1 game", and an opponent is found automatically. The map is chosen randomly in a set of "official" maps. Along the updates of the game, this set grew up a little bit, with some new maps. We don't know the map before the start of the game.

In some maps, there are more that 2 starting points. When there are more, the starting points are also chosen randomly between all "fair" combination of starting points. (this is an aspect you should think about)

(there are also sets of maps for 2v2 , 3v3, 4v4 games .... some maps are in sets for both 1v1 and 2v2 games ..)

The knowledge of different maps was also some part of the skill in this game.

I think i remember they implemented an option, a player could choose 3 maps he doesn't want to play with...

If a map is chosen randomly, i think the players should still chose the SIZE of the map, in order to anticipate the duration of the game if autocrat or artifacts ...


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WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
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Posted at: 2019-11-24, 15:33

@gnarfk:

Nice feature ideas. Maybe one day someone will implemented all of this, who knows?

trimard wrote:

Good news that the ranking is working. Can you show us?

Well last visible update I posted in the appropriate topic. But since then most change were "invisible".

What do you want me to show you? An updated tournament?

An updated rating list would be nice, yes

I wait for more games, because that's kind of lot of work. I have to redo all the maps, as I destroy the db pretty often.

Okay

Thanks for the maps propositions Worldsavior, it's a good start

You're welcome

I wouldn't vote for three warrior personally though. I struggle too much with wood face-tongue.png

But it's a very balanced map and maybe it's good that Atlanteans have a small disadvantage somewhere face-wink.png


“It's a threat to our planet to believe that someone else will save it.” - Robert Swan

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trimard
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Joined: 2009-03-05, 22:40
Posts: 223
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Widelands-Forum-Junkie
Location: Paris
Posted at: 2019-11-24, 23:21

@gnarfk

I agree with your whole plan. As an old starcraft player too, I was heavily inspired by their system. I try to go step by step though :P.

i think the players should still chose the SIZE of the map, in order to anticipate the duration of the game if autocrat or artifacts ...

So two map pool?


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