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Topic: Constructing a trainingscamp

fk
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Joined: 2013-07-30, 22:58
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Posted at: 2014-03-11, 22:42

@einstein13:

Sometimes reasoning is better than voting.


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einstein13
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Joined: 2013-07-29, 00:01
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Posted at: 2014-03-11, 23:21

fk wrote:

@einstein13:

Sometimes reasoning is better than voting.

Yes, but teppo asked for that. Reasoning is always better, but sometimes we can't be reasonable. (especially with women :P)


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calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2014-03-12, 00:48

Do we really want a gender debate here? I think not face-wink.png

Balancing factions/tribes in a game is a very tricky business, and there are people who specialize in that kind of thing - not without reason, I wager.

Reason only works if you have knowledge of all the facts and rules and make no mistakes, and we're discussing a very complex issue here. Probably, only extensive playtesting can solve this issue, which would take a long time. So, we're back to intuition, I guess *lol


Busy indexing nil values

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SirVer
Joined: 2009-02-19, 15:18
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Posted at: 2014-03-12, 06:44

especially with women

woah, that was uncalled for. -1!

voting is not a good mechanism for making design changes. We had that before with the backwards compatible inn debate where I think voting showed that most of the community has a strong opinion, but do not think very deeply about issues concerning gameplay and balance. Debating is better, though we cannot find a solution to the question if it will have an impact on balance.


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teppo
Joined: 2012-01-30, 09:42
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Posted at: 2014-03-12, 15:04

Balancing factions/tribes in a game is a very tricky business, and there are people who specialize in that kind of thing - not without reason, I wager.

There are already some unbalanced maps. For example, in "Tongues of Fire" uploaded recently to the forum by einstein13, Empire rocks. In some others maps where stone is scarce, Empire players must plan really carefully to avoid deadlocks. Similarly, this change might make game less balanced on some maps, but that is not at all granted.

In short: When the tribes have different needs, the game can only be balanced on if the maps are scrutinized before publishing.

voting is not a good mechanism for making design changes

I do not know any good mechanisms.


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einstein13
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Posted at: 2014-03-12, 17:46

SirVer wrote:

especially with women

woah, that was uncalled for. -1!

That was only a joke, SirVer face-smile.png I didn't mean anything rude. Sorry if it was crossing the borders.

teppo wrote:

Empire players must plan really carefully to avoid deadlocks

Many maps without granite in the rocks are impossible to play for Empire (marble) and Atlanteans (cristals). But there are lots of maps where any tribe can be in good place.

SirVer wrote:

Debating is better

teppo wrote:

I do not know any good mechanisms.

Debating is better when there is lots of people involved. Here only 4 of whole community (?!). I don't think that this is good debate here face-confused.png

There is one question: how can we encourage people to debate?


einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/

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Horatio
Joined: 2011-11-07, 20:27
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Posted at: 2014-03-13, 11:36

"I think it would add to the gameplay, if barbarians would build their Trainingscamp in two steps: Bootcamp (trains only the first steps) -> Trainingscamp (like trainingscamp now)."

This is a fairly pointless suggestion as you can simulate this closely enough in any tribe via limiting weapon/shield production and manually kicking soldiers out of the trainingscamp (no idea whether this is automatized in the new build). Furthermore gold is rarely scarce, especially not 4 gold for building a trainingscamp. As SirVer has pointed out, the difficult thing with barbarians is not the opening which is pretty easy but to get wheat production going in the middlegame.


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SirVer
Joined: 2009-02-19, 15:18
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Posted at: 2014-03-13, 11:41

einstein13 wrote:

SirVer wrote:

especially with women

woah, that was uncalled for. -1!

That was only a joke, SirVer face-smile.png I didn't mean anything rude. Sorry if it was crossing the borders.

not a good joke, especially not in written form. Also, jokes like this increase unconscious bias which is already a huge problem especially in IT. I know that you did not mean anything bad, but nobody ever does and overt bias is not a big problem. In my company we actually have to test ourselves for unconscious bias once per year and that is an interesting experience - I highly recommend it.

teppo wrote:

Empire players must plan really carefully to avoid deadlocks

Many maps without granite in the rocks are impossible to play for Empire (marble) and Atlanteans (cristals). But there are lots of maps where any tribe can be in good place.

SirVer wrote:

Debating is better

teppo wrote:

I do not know any good mechanisms.

Debating is better when there is lots of people involved. Here only 4 of whole community (?!). I don't think that this is good debate here face-confused.png

There is one question: how can we encourage people to debate?


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fk
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Joined: 2013-07-30, 22:58
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Posted at: 2014-03-13, 12:40

Yes, how ... ?


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teppo
Joined: 2012-01-30, 09:42
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Posted at: 2014-03-14, 20:47

Horatio:

As SirVer has pointed out, the difficult thing with barbarians is not the opening which is pretty easy but to get wheat

SirVer has not mentioned wheat problems in this thread.

gold is rarely scarce

It depends on map. There are many maps where this is true. However, when gold is available, this change would only hurt barbarians (one more worker to be trained..)

SirVer:

In my company we actually have to test ourselves for unconscious bias

Yes, this is a very interesting topic that deserves its own thread (if not forum).

After all the feedback here, I will not rush into splitting the trainingscamp as drafted. I still like the idea, though.


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