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Topic: Solving the hero problem without nerfing heroes

PkK
Joined: 2012-01-06, 12:19
Posts: 202
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Widelands-Forum-Junkie
Posted at: 2020-05-29, 09:43

Currently, widelands has a hero (level 10 soldier) problem: Micromanaging a hero is often the key to success, much more important than economy and military strategy.

On the other hand, heroes fit well into the game: It is realistic that very good fighters can defeat many unexperienced ones. And a level 10 soldier is not a big problem when he is facing multiple level 7 ones.

So IMO, the solution could be to require more effort to get heroes, so the player aiming for a hero is likely to face a number of level 7 soldiers when deploying the hero.

This would be implemented by delaying the ability to get top-level weapons / armor. A possibility for the empire:

  • Remove the ability to produce the best spears and armor from the current buildings.
  • Add "advanced weaponsmithy", "advanced armorsmithy" (probably boring names, but good enough for this discussion) buildings that are able to produce all weapons / armor.
  • The "advanced weaponsmithy" would require a master weaponsmith and a weaponsmith, the "advanced armorsmithy" would require a master armorsmith and an armorsmith.

The requirment for a master would mean that it takes some time before the best weapons / armor can be produced. The requirement for another smith in the game would require that more firetongues are needed, thus requring the player to have a toolsmith first.

Something similar could be done for the barbarian helmsmith. An obvious alternative to the above would be to have the "advanced [whatever]smithy" be a separate building that only produces the top weapons / armor.

I guess a similar approach would also work for the other tribes. The basic idea always is: Make the economic infrastructure needed to make top-level gear expensive without making the top-level gear itself expensive (otherwise players would just keep using level 7 soldiers exclusively in the late game). This way, there is still an advantage in having heroes, but only later in the game and the race to get the first hero and to micromanage it becomes less decisive for the game.


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teppo
Joined: 2012-01-30, 09:42
Posts: 401
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Tribe Member
Posted at: 2020-05-30, 11:18

PkK wrote:

Currently, widelands has a hero (level 10 soldier) problem: Micromanaging a hero is often the key to success, much more important than economy and military strategy.

I agree.

Something similar could be done for the barbarian helmsmith. An obvious alternative to the above would be to have the "advanced [whatever]smithy" be a separate building that only produces the top weapons / armor.

Or trainingsite.. If the trainer has to complete certain amount of training with basic helmets before he can start training with double-edged one, the player more or less has to accept partially trained soldiers in his economy at some stage. If the helmsmith needs experience, nobody forces you to use those mediocre helmets. If this is done via experience, partial training is more manatory.

Another option is to make the upgrade of helmsmith/trainingsite painfully expensive.


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WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
Posts: 1734
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One Elder of Players
Location: North of Germany
Posted at: 2020-05-31, 19:12

teppo wrote:

PkK wrote:

Currently, widelands has a hero (level 10 soldier) problem: Micromanaging a hero is often the key to success, much more important than economy and military strategy.

I agree.

-1

Hasn't the new training algorithm solved that "problem" already?

Something similar could be done for the barbarian helmsmith. An obvious alternative to the above would be to have the "advanced [whatever]smithy" be a separate building that only produces the top weapons / armor.

Or trainingsite.. If the trainer has to complete certain amount of training with basic helmets before he can start training with double-edged one, the player more or less has to accept partially trained soldiers in his economy at some stage. If the helmsmith needs experience, nobody forces you to use those mediocre helmets. If this is done via experience, partial training is more manatory.

Another option is to make the upgrade of helmsmith/trainingsite painfully expensive.

-1

PkK wrote:

On the other hand, heroes fit well into the game: It is realistic that very good fighters can defeat many unexperienced ones. And a level 10 soldier is not a big problem when he is facing multiple level 7 ones.

+1

So IMO, the solution could be to require more effort to get heroes, so the player aiming for a hero is likely to face a number of level 7 soldiers when deploying the hero.

This would be implemented by delaying the ability to get top-level weapons / armor. A possibility for the empire:

  • Remove the ability to produce the best spears and armor from the current buildings.
  • Add "advanced weaponsmithy", "advanced armorsmithy" (probably boring names, but good enough for this discussion) buildings that are able to produce all weapons / armor.
  • The "advanced weaponsmithy" would require a master weaponsmith and a weaponsmith, the "advanced armorsmithy" would require a master armorsmith and an armorsmith.

The requirment for a master would mean that it takes some time before the best weapons / armor can be produced. The requirement for another smith in the game would require that more firetongues are needed, thus requring the player to have a toolsmith first.

Something similar could be done for the barbarian helmsmith. An obvious alternative to the above would be to have the "advanced [whatever]smithy" be a separate building that only produces the top weapons / armor.

I guess a similar approach would also work for the other tribes. The basic idea always is: Make the economic infrastructure needed to make top-level gear expensive without making the top-level gear itself expensive (otherwise players would just keep using level 7 soldiers exclusively in the late game). This way, there is still an advantage in having heroes, but only later in the game and the race to get the first hero and to micromanage it becomes less decisive for the game.

-1

Edited: 2020-06-01, 21:02

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the-x
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Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23
Posts: 497
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Tribe Member
Posted at: 2020-06-01, 20:14

PkK wrote:

Currently, widelands has a hero (level 10 soldier) problem: Micromanaging a hero is often the key to success, much more important than economy and military strategy.

Indeed, this is definitely the highest priority to solve the hero problem.

So IMO, the solution could be to require more effort to get heroes, so the player aiming for a hero is likely to face a number of level 7 soldiers when deploying the hero.

This would be implemented by delaying the ability to get top-level weapons / armor. A possibility for the empire:

  • Remove the ability to produce the best spears and armor from the current buildings.
  • Add "advanced weaponsmithy", "advanced armorsmithy" (probably boring names, but good enough for this discussion) buildings that are able to produce all weapons / armor.
  • The "advanced weaponsmithy" would require a master weaponsmith and a weaponsmith, the "advanced armorsmithy" would require a master armorsmith and an armorsmith.

The requirment for a master would mean that it takes some time before the best weapons / armor can be produced. The requirement for another smith in the game would require that more firetongues are needed, thus requring the player to have a toolsmith first.

This is one very good approach to solve: By extending the time for the lastest upgrades a lot. Maybe exponentially: Level 1 is very easy to reach and level 10 very hard.

Still I wonder why in "Balance" their havent been any changes?


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WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
Posts: 1734
Ranking
One Elder of Players
Location: North of Germany
Posted at: 2020-06-01, 21:02

the-x wrote:

PkK wrote:

Currently, widelands has a hero (level 10 soldier) problem: Micromanaging a hero is often the key to success, much more important than economy and military strategy.

Indeed, this is definitely the highest priority to solve the hero problem.

So IMO, the solution could be to require more effort to get heroes, so the player aiming for a hero is likely to face a number of level 7 soldiers when deploying the hero.

This would be implemented by delaying the ability to get top-level weapons / armor. A possibility for the empire:

  • Remove the ability to produce the best spears and armor from the current buildings.
  • Add "advanced weaponsmithy", "advanced armorsmithy" (probably boring names, but good enough for this discussion) buildings that are able to produce all weapons / armor.
  • The "advanced weaponsmithy" would require a master weaponsmith and a weaponsmith, the "advanced armorsmithy" would require a master armorsmith and an armorsmith.

The requirment for a master would mean that it takes some time before the best weapons / armor can be produced. The requirement for another smith in the game would require that more firetongues are needed, thus requring the player to have a toolsmith first.

This is one very good approach to solve: By extending the time for the lastest upgrades a lot. Maybe exponentially: Level 1 is very easy to reach and level 10 very hard.

Still I wonder why in "Balance" their havent been any changes?

I disagree, teammate face-wink.png


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the-x
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Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23
Posts: 497
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Tribe Member
Posted at: 2020-06-01, 21:32

I am also interested how my Teammate would solve this face-wink.png


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WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
Posts: 1734
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One Elder of Players
Location: North of Germany
Posted at: 2020-06-01, 22:03

"No problem" means that no solution is needed. I don't dislike the micro-management as it increases complexity and variety of the game. Plus, the micro-management has been reduced already anyway ( new trainingssite algorithm)


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PkK
Joined: 2012-01-06, 12:19
Posts: 202
Ranking
Widelands-Forum-Junkie
Posted at: 2020-06-02, 12:59

WorldSavior wrote:

"No problem" means that no solution is needed. I don't dislike the micro-management as it increases complexity and variety of the game. Plus, the micro-management has been reduced already anyway ( new trainingssite algorithm)

The problem is that the by far best strategy in widelands is aiming for early creation of a hero, and micromanaging its use. Being good at this currently dwarf other aspects of mastering the game.

There is a lot of freedom in how to approach widelands (and lots of stuff to micro-optimize - transportation, balanced economy, use of building space, etc). But currently all that really matters for winning is getting the first hero as early as possible. IMO, the game would be better, if depending on map, opponent, etc different aspects would matter more.


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WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
Posts: 1734
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One Elder of Players
Location: North of Germany
Posted at: 2020-06-02, 17:48

PkK wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

"No problem" means that no solution is needed. I don't dislike the micro-management as it increases complexity and variety of the game. Plus, the micro-management has been reduced already anyway ( new trainingssite algorithm)

The problem is that the by far best strategy in widelands is aiming for early creation of a hero, and micromanaging its use. Being good at this currently dwarf other aspects of mastering the game.

This is only true for some maps and some modes.

There is a lot of freedom in how to approach widelands (and lots of stuff to micro-optimize - transportation, balanced economy, use of building space, etc). But currently all that really matters for winning is getting the first hero as early as possible.

No

IMO, the game would be better, if depending on map, opponent, etc different aspects would matter more.

This is already the case: For example on a long-distance-fight, it's not about training the hero first, but about economy for training big numbers. Training a hero fast will not be a good strategy, because the enemy is too far away to make the early hero useful.

And on a short-distance-fight, there is often not enough time to train the hero.

So currently we already have a lot of variety in Widelands.

Edited: 2020-06-02, 17:55

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