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Topic: Balancing

the-x
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Posted at: 2019-12-01, 16:44

These are just ideas to make a great game even greater for beginner same as pro player

  • Speed: double usual speed, to make make the beginning more interesting, half speed of soldiers that widelands is no "stress" - soldiers move with 1/2 or 1/4 speed --> you see the attack and have time to react while economy works fast enught that games dont last 4 hours

  • make fully upraded soldiers weeker. only "heroes" count, which is fun for players who hero but frustrating for all other players, as their is just nothing that can stand against

  • we must find a way that ships are build faster - in no map where you can directly reach your enemy do ships make any improvement (even if the only gold is outside, you will still go fast expanding)

  • Expansion is much too fast (and if you spam the 5th or even 10th barrack after the other also boring)

  • We still need to find small imrpovements to make levelling the first stages cheaper and faster and on the highest levels more expensive and also complicated


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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-12-01, 23:18

the-x wrote:

These are just ideas to make a great game even greater for beginner same as pro player

  • Speed: double usual speed, to make make the beginning more interesting, half speed of soldiers that widelands is no "stress" - soldiers move with 1/2 or 1/4 speed --> you see the attack and have time to react while economy works fast enught that games dont last 4 hours

There is a reason why speed is ajustable. Some like the pressure of a ticking clock others like to have pretty much time for planning all the production to squeeze the max out of the map.

  • make fully upraded soldiers weeker. only "heroes" count, which is fun for players who hero but frustrating for all other players, as their is just nothing that can stand against

It is not everything (although a lot) about having a hero. e.g. Worldsavior often skips some promotions in favor of not having to build some buildings. However on big maps it is all about making more heros per time which is related to economy strength. And economy strength is the core of this game.

  • we must find a way that ships are build faster - in no map where you can directly reach your enemy do ships make any improvement (even if the only gold is outside, you will still go fast expanding)

I believe ships are useful on big maps to shortcut transport routes or for the fun of exploring. they don't need to be of use on any map. However if we get naval warfare ready some time it might be possible to retreat and restrength using ships probably

  • Expansion is much too fast (and if you spam the 5th or even 10th barrack after the other also boring)

Don't understand expansion without using the space is not that effective as the opponent (don't like the term enemy) is probably better prepared if he focuses is energy on building up the economy.

  • We still need to find small imrpovements to make levelling the first stages cheaper and faster and on the highest levels more expensive and also complicated

I believe we have discussed zerg rush in detail in other threads already. However there is some difference with the strength of the cheaper units between the tribes.


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the-x
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Posted at: 2019-12-02, 13:10

I think the aim should be to make the game most fun, and so I dont understand hessenfarmer, when some players think it is too fast while other say the attacks are stress for them why we dont change game speed if we can easily change a parameter. That game speed is adjustable is the usualst thing, i want to change soldiers moving speed in relation to game speed to 1/4. I really want to answer to my ideas not changing a part of it and say the whole doesnt make sence. Same with the other i do not say the level up system is bad i only say it would make a lot more fun (by very little changes) if we make costs exponential (just change costs) instead of linear. If its linear only the number of heroes count and of course this gives a lot of new strategies which is nice and not bad. I think our aim should be to make the game as good or as fun as it gets.


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the-x
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Posted at: 2019-12-02, 13:32

hessenfarmer wrote:

the-x wrote:

These are just ideas to make a great game even greater for beginner same as pro player

  • Speed: double usual speed, to make make the beginning more interesting, half speed of soldiers that widelands is no "stress" - soldiers move with 1/2 or 1/4 speed --> you see the attack and have time to react while economy works fast enught that games dont last 4 hours

There is a reason why speed is ajustable. Some like the pressure of a ticking clock others like to have pretty much time for planning all the production to squeeze the max out of the map.

.

Adjustable should stay of course. Why is there need for a change?

When I attack another player, i try to attack at three or four places at the same time. For the defending player it is almost impossible to defeat this without pausing the game. The attack sound comes 1 second before soldier reaching the barracs, and there is no time for defending player to defend. Why soldiers speed slower? Building speed should not be slower, only the action of attacs.

Also: If you play a game for 4 hour and then suddenly all the action taking place in 30 seconds - - -> i would say it is much more fun if you see slowly moving soldiers, think where they might attack and having this more flowing. Moreover it makes fun seeing soldiers move instead of no action 99% of the time.

  • make fully upraded soldiers weeker. only "heroes" count, which is fun for players who hero but frustrating for all other players, as their is just nothing that can stand against
  • We still need to find small imrpovements to make levelling the first stages cheaper and faster and on the highest levels more expensive and also complicated

Its not about something like zerg-rushes - it's about balacing the fact that very strong players can compete with not so strong players. I also see myself rather as strong player but I want to make anyway exponential building costs. So very small improvements lead to the first stages (f.e. attack 1) while i am not really ready uprading and have to think - do i now really want to make the attack from 3 to 4 or is it better first to attack / or expand / build fortresses / make a good structure to defend in order to collect all ressources to make an upgrade and many more strategies. Now its simple, i level up and when im ready i attack.

  • we must find a way that ships are build faster - in no map where you can directly reach your enemy do ships make any improvement (even if the only gold is outside, you will still go fast expanding)

I believe ships are useful on big maps to shortcut transport routes or for the fun of exploring. they don't need to be of use on any map. However if we get naval warfare ready some time it might be possible to retreat and restrength using ships probably

Yes, but if every ship game lasts 4+ hours these games are almost never or extremly rarely seen on multiplayer.

Also i want to say that this game is almost perfect. It makes a lot of fun and has excellent mechanics in it, just to mentioan bright / dark grey of wares indicating if a ware is already on the way.

Edited: 2019-12-02, 13:40

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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-12-02, 13:57

the-x wrote:

hessenfarmer wrote:

the-x wrote:

These are just ideas to make a great game even greater for beginner same as pro player

  • Speed: double usual speed, to make make the beginning more interesting, half speed of soldiers that widelands is no "stress" - soldiers move with 1/2 or 1/4 speed --> you see the attack and have time to react while economy works fast enught that games dont last 4 hours

There is a reason why speed is ajustable. Some like the pressure of a ticking clock others like to have pretty much time for planning all the production to squeeze the max out of the map.

.

Adjustable should stay of course. Why is there need for a change?

When I attack another player, i try to attack at three or four places at the same time. For the defending player it is almost impossible to defeat this without pausing the game. The attack sound comes 1 second before soldier reaching the barracs, and there is no time for defending player to defend. Why soldiers speed slower? Building speed should not be slower, only the action of attacs.

I just commented on the first part about game speed. For the idea of slowing down attacking soldiers I am not sure whether this helps much, as normally it isn't the time to react that is critical but missing an attack site while managing another attack.
Normally there isn't a way to defend. as you can't get enough soldiers there in time even if attacking soldiers move with only 1/4 of the current speed. It won't help against the trick to make all defenders leave a building and then attack a building with only 1 soldier. It will only give you more time to dismantle which is the only option if you are outnumbered at any site. So I doubt this to be worth the pain or getting up the priority list. However I am not totally against this.

Also: If you play a game for 4 hour and then suddenly all the action taking place in 30 seconds - - -> i would say it is much more fun if you see slowly moving soldiers, think where they might attack and having this more flowing. Moreover it makes fun seeing soldiers move instead of no action 99% of the time.

  • make fully upraded soldiers weeker. only "heroes" count, which is fun for players who hero but frustrating for all other players, as their is just nothing that can stand against
  • We still need to find small imrpovements to make levelling the first stages cheaper and faster and on the highest levels more expensive and also complicated

Its not about something like zerg-rushes - it's about balacing the fact that very strong players can compete with not so strong players. I also see myself rather as strong player but I want to make anyway exponential building costs. So very small improvements lead to the first stages (f.e. attack 1) while i am not really ready uprading and have to think - do i now really want to make the attack from 3 to 4 or is it better first to attack / or expand / build fortresses / make a good structure to defend in order to collect all ressources to make an upgrade and many more strategies. Now its simple, i level up and when im ready i attack.

Problem I see here the more expensive upgrades get the more advantage a player has who manages the game very well. Because the better your economy is the better you could afford expensive upgrades. Furthermore deciding and managing the upgrades due to them being expensive will cost a lot of micromanagement which gives the better player another advantage so I see the opposite effect as what you pretend to achieve. This mechanism described would only lead to a better possibility to rush before anybody coulod have his economy ready to build up the more expensive upgrades.

  • we must find a way that ships are build faster - in no map where you can directly reach your enemy do ships make any improvement (even if the only gold is outside, you will still go fast expanding)

I believe ships are useful on big maps to shortcut transport routes or for the fun of exploring. they don't need to be of use on any map. However if we get naval warfare ready some time it might be possible to retreat and restrength using ships probably

Yes, but if every ship game lasts 4+ hours these games are almost never or extremly rarely seen on multiplayer.

I believe this to stay the case as long as it isn't possible to attack with ships. If this is possible you might consider attacking an opponent from its backside.

Also i want to say that this game is almost perfect. It makes a lot of fun and has excellent mechanics in it, just to mentioan bright / dark grey of wares indicating if a ware is already on the way.


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BoeseKaiser
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Posted at: 2019-12-02, 14:02

the-x wrote: When I attack another player, i try to attack at three or four places at the same time. For the defending player it is almost impossible to defeat this without pausing the game. The attack sound comes 1 second before soldier reaching the barracs, and there is no time for defending player to defend. Why soldiers speed slower? Building speed should not be slower, only the action of attacs.

I don't really get it. as I understood widelands, the majority of the fight is decided with the existing structures and soldiers at the moment of the attack, but there is not much to do once the attack has started. the fighting system is rather preventive than reactive, and the real fight happenes before "attack" is clicked. sure, you can free some soldiers from other military buildings, but that is not really time consuming (and your proposition doesn't change the stage of the fight where such soldiers arrive, because they would be slowed down as well). What actions do you want to give the players time to do with this slowed down speed?

the-x wrote: Its not about something like zerg-rushes - it's about balacing the fact that very strong players can compete with not so strong players. I also see myself rather as strong player but I want to make anyway exponential building costs. So very small improvements lead to the first stages (f.e. attack 1) while i am not really ready uprading and have to think - do i now really want to make the attack from 3 to 4 or is it better first to attack / or expand / build fortresses / make a good structure to defend in order to collect all ressources to make an upgrade and many more strategies. Now its simple, i level up and when im ready i attack.

well, I disagree. Actually your atlanteans build on crater is also proof that it's not as easy as "Now its simple, i level up and when im ready i attack." you could upgrade more and attack later. but you found an optimal point at around 30 min where you can attack with quite strong soldiers. You could upgrade them more, but you don't. you try to disrupt your opponent's economy first. that's a strategic choice. Same with my counter-build (it's gonna work, I know it is face-grin.png ) I do sacrifice economy to be able to defend/counter attack, but at a certain point I still do a metal workshop caus I want more food. I also tried squeezing a couple of tools before my first ax workshop, which gives me 1 or 2 lvl 2 soldiers less at the 30 min mark but could speed up my game after this time. Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that there is already a tradeoff between soldier production and economy speed. Maybe it's less the case for really long games


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the-x
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Posted at: 2019-12-02, 14:12

hessenfarmer wrote:

the-x wrote:

hessenfarmer wrote:

the-x wrote:

These are just ideas to make a great game even greater for beginner same as pro player

  • Speed: double usual speed, to make make the beginning more interesting, half speed of soldiers that widelands is no "stress" - soldiers move with 1/2 or 1/4 speed --> you see the attack and have time to react while economy works fast enught that games dont last 4 hours

There is a reason why speed is ajustable. Some like the pressure of a ticking clock others like to have pretty much time for planning all the production to squeeze the max out of the map.

.

Adjustable should stay of course. Why is there need for a change?

When I attack another player, i try to attack at three or four places at the same time. For the defending player it is almost impossible to defeat this without pausing the game. The attack sound comes 1 second before soldier reaching the barracs, and there is no time for defending player to defend. Why soldiers speed slower? Building speed should not be slower, only the action of attacs.

I just commented on the first part about game speed. For the idea of slowing down attacking soldiers I am not sure whether this helps much, as normally it isn't the time to react that is critical but missing an attack site while managing another attack.
Normally there isn't a way to defend. as you can't get enough soldiers there in time even if attacking soldiers move with only 1/4 of the current speed. It won't help against the trick to make all defenders leave a building and then attack a building with only 1 soldier. It will only give you more time to dismantle which is the only option if you are outnumbered at any site. So I doubt this to be worth the pain or getting up the priority list. However I am not totally against this.

Yes, i see also that this might be something we could do. The decision to cancel a building is a nice way but if you have to watch multiple buildings the same time it can be stress not only for new players. Also watching fights is fun and why should they just happen very fast.

Also: If you play a game for 4 hour and then suddenly all the action taking place in 30 seconds - - -> i would say it is much more fun if you see slowly moving soldiers, think where they might attack and having this more flowing. Moreover it makes fun seeing soldiers move instead of no action 99% of the time.

  • make fully upraded soldiers weeker. only "heroes" count, which is fun for players who hero but frustrating for all other players, as their is just nothing that can stand against
  • We still need to find small imrpovements to make levelling the first stages cheaper and faster and on the highest levels more expensive and also complicated

Its not about something like zerg-rushes - it's about balacing the fact that very strong players can compete with not so strong players. I also see myself rather as strong player but I want to make anyway exponential building costs. So very small improvements lead to the first stages (f.e. attack 1) while i am not really ready uprading and have to think - do i now really want to make the attack from 3 to 4 or is it better first to attack / or expand / build fortresses / make a good structure to defend in order to collect all ressources to make an upgrade and many more strategies. Now its simple, i level up and when im ready i attack.

Problem I see here the more expensive upgrades get the more advantage a player has who manages the game very well. Because the better your economy is the better you could afford expensive upgrades. Furthermore deciding and managing the upgrades due to them being expensive will cost a lot of micromanagement which gives the better player another advantage so I see the opposite effect as what you pretend to achieve. This mechanism described would only lead to a better possibility to rush before anybody coulod have his economy ready to build up the more expensive upgrades.

Yes, i see it more eponential. I mean if a weak players reaches 70% cause this is very easy and you struggle between 85 and 90 this game can still be fun. And very fun. (We could also add a rarely / randomly ressource that is very hard fto find for the last stage / make gold more rarely).

If i level up fast and then attack, whilst the other not having a single hero, not even half trained soldiers its like always the same. build hero and attack - and win


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the-x
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Posted at: 2019-12-02, 14:27

BoeseKaiser wrote:

the-x wrote: Its not about something like zerg-rushes - it's about balacing the fact that very strong players can compete with not so strong players. I also see myself rather as strong player but I want to make anyway exponential building costs. So very small improvements lead to the first stages (f.e. attack 1) while i am not really ready uprading and have to think - do i now really want to make the attack from 3 to 4 or is it better first to attack / or expand / build fortresses / make a good structure to defend in order to collect all ressources to make an upgrade and many more strategies. Now its simple, i level up and when im ready i attack.

well, I disagree. Actually your atlanteans build on crater is also proof that it's not as easy as "Now its simple, i level up and when im ready i attack." you could upgrade more and attack later. but you found an optimal point at around 30 min where you can attack with quite strong soldiers. You could upgrade them more, but you don't. you try to disrupt your opponent's economy first. that's a strategic choice. Same with my counter-build (it's gonna work, I know it is face-grin.png ) I do sacrifice economy to be able to defend/counter attack, but at a certain point I still do a metal workshop caus I want more food. I also tried squeezing a couple of tools before my first ax workshop, which gives me 1 or 2 lvl 2 soldiers less at the 30 min mark but could speed up my game after this time. Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that there is already a tradeoff between soldier production and economy speed. Maybe it's less the case for really long games

Yes, but this is the thing i want to improve. My Atlanteans build is a counter hero build which aims at attacking right before the other player puts his first hero out.

My idea above is more about making more strategies possible. And by the actual version i think its optimal to play this build against any player who you know makes hero build.

Of course there is already a tradeoff whoch means strategies but i see much more fun if upgrading isnt linear. I could decide to attack after the 2nd attack improvement, just cause i know that my enemy will invest in his next costly step which needs him some time, not the fast standard hero build, cause they are really strong, once you have heros there is no counter anymore to heros. only if you have built faster heros before ... (but then the enym doenst have a counter to your fast hero build). If now we are at minute 40 and i decide to build "evade 2" because i see you going full "attack" - this leads to crazy new strategies and fun during the game cause with scouts i can see parts of what you are doing. but randomly and onlony parts. Or if you build "health" i try to get my soldiers another upgrade - as fast as possible - i try to eco up which is the perfect counter fpr your upgrade. I try to make my attack before you can do the counter.

And the best thing is: we have everything already in our game, we dont need any graphics any programming for "evade" or "attack" we only need to make costs of the last stage more expensive so you think before you upgrade. at the moment i upragde automatically everytime the same way cause i know that this works, i dont really think about chaning anything depending what the other player does. In fact I play every time the same game because I know i win all games with it. If I first have to scout what my enemy does, think, change my strategy it makes so many dieffernt startegies and so much new fun.


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BoeseKaiser
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Posted at: 2019-12-02, 15:05

Hum, I'd have to check the timings of heroes of good players, and for instance how good is a hero against a lvl 7 soldier for instance. I know there are some stats somewhere on the forum.

But the fact that there is a counter already brings diversity, if fast hero is counters 100% of the time with your build, then it means that it's not a viable strategy anymore on small maps, or at least it would be a really greedy strategy.

the-x wrote:

My idea above is more about making more strategies possible. And by the actual version i think its optimal to play this build against any player who you know makes hero build.

that's what I mean. fast hero or your build are strategies you have to commit to before you can know what your opponent do. so fast hero build becomes a gamble and you cann't know if someone is doing it so maybe your build becomes a gamble as well, and a lot of strategies emmerge.

I do like the idea of multiplying the possible strategies, but I think there are still a lot to explore before concluding that there is a lack of possibilities as is.

But sure thing is, I do have little experience. I mostly played against you actually. so maybe it's just me who has a lot of exploring to do :p


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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2019-12-03, 20:45

the-x wrote:

These are just ideas to make a great game even greater for beginner same as pro player

  • Speed: double usual speed, to make make the beginning more interesting, half speed of soldiers that widelands is no "stress" - soldiers move with 1/2 or 1/4 speed --> you see the attack and have time to react while economy works fast enught that games dont last 4 hours

Soldiers move already slowly, I don't see the point of slowing them down even more. I mean, if you slow the match down to 0.5 speed, you have time to react to a lot attacks. Just don't slow the match down to this speed all the time ; )

  • make fully upraded soldiers weeker. only "heroes" count, which is fun for players who hero but frustrating for all other players, as their is just nothing that can stand against

I wouldn't say that this is the case. There are a lot of replays in this forum where we play on small maps against each other, and heroes are not even existing in this matches.

  • we must find a way that ships are build faster - in no map where you can directly reach your enemy do ships make any improvement (even if the only gold is outside, you will still go fast expanding)

Take for example a look at the map "Together we are strong" face-wink.png

  • Expansion is much too fast (and if you spam the 5th or even 10th barrack after the other also boring)

I also disagree here. If expansion would be even slower, how could one have matches with early fights which are an important counter-part for matches on bigger maps?

  • We still need to find small imrpovements to make levelling the first stages cheaper and faster and on the highest levels more expensive and also complicated

Actually levelling at the first stages is cheaper than on the highest levels, and also stronger, and less complicated.

Edited: 2019-12-03, 20:45

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