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Topic: Build 20

hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-01-20, 17:40

WorldSavior wrote:

And by the way: The AI makes now some terrible mistakes which it didn't do in build19...

What mistakes? Is it reproducable? could you provide replays?


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simplypeachy
Joined: 2009-04-23, 12:42
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Posted at: 2019-01-20, 17:47

I've seen a Frisian AI build three+ reindeer farms in close proximity. The AI also seem to prefer building small military buildings near areas of recent military conflict, which weakens their position. I am not sure if either of these behaviours are new.


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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2019-01-20, 19:50

simplypeachy wrote:

I've seen a Frisian AI build three+ reindeer farms in close proximity.

That's too much if the whole economy is still small. For big economies it can make sense...

The AI also seem to prefer building small military buildings near areas of recent military conflict, which weakens their position. I am not sure if either of these behaviours are new.

Yes, that's right. I think it's new. The AI now also dismantles military building close to their frontlines and/or sets soldier capacities very low

hessenfarmer wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

And by the way: The AI makes now some terrible mistakes which it didn't do in build19...

What mistakes?

For example Atlantean AI's often fail at making a tool production running: They build too many quarries so the picks are wasted for stone, and then they build 2 crystal mines very soon, so they cannot occupy their iron- and/or coal-mines without putting the miners from the crystal mines into the other mines (which they are not able to do).

Then they will continue dismantling those mines all the time (except for the occupied mines which are mostly crystal), so they waste a lot of resources and lower their chance for the occupation even more.

And they often dismantle productionsites, just because productivity is low, which isn't very helpful.

Or the AI doesn't upgrade mines even when it makes sense (for example when they are depleted and deeper mines would find something).

Is it reproducable?

Well, it just happens very often

could you provide replays?

Replays are still broken, but I think they are not needed? Because if you watch some AI matches ( with auto_speed-command it's quite comfortable) you will see many huge new mistakes all the time.


“It's a threat to our planet to believe that someone else will save it.” - Robert Swan

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Tibor
Joined: 2009-03-23, 23:24
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Posted at: 2019-01-20, 20:37

AI is different now, and no longer it is possible to finetune it - at least in some aspects. It costed me so much time and I am afraid nobody else is willing to spent that time to create another rule-based AI as before.

Few comments:

AI still does not understand the space. E.g. if it "sees" rocks in vicinity it can not figure out if removal is critical for expansion, or it can ignore them. So by default it tries to remove them aggressively.

Mines producing building material (like crystal ones) are more critical than iron/coal ones, and are barely ever dismantled therefore.

AI behaves best in average conditions - enough space, all materials available and some time to build an economy. If you stress it somehow - it will not cope well... Training would help, but except for my home PC I have no capacity for this...


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kaputtnik
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Posted at: 2019-01-20, 20:41

WorldSavior wrote:

And by the way: The AI makes now some terrible mistakes which it didn't do in build19...

Buil19 has a complete different implementation. As far i understand, the current implementation of the AI is some kind of self learning, observed by a human: Ai training. Comparing this two implementations is not very productive.

Tibor's work on this is great, because every one can train the AI and thus can help to make it better without knowledge of programming. He has to spend some time on training though (a kind of contributing). But if one has an idea to improve the ai, i think no one would complain face-smile.png


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the-x
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Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23
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Posted at: 2019-01-20, 20:43

No matter where I search for, I cant find R20 anywhere, not on the downloads, nowhere


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kaputtnik
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Posted at: 2019-01-20, 20:45

build20 is currently not an official release. But current trunk (development version) is what build20 will be in some weeks face-smile.png


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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2019-01-20, 21:07

Tibor wrote:

AI is different now, and no longer it is possible to finetune it - at least in some aspects. It costed me so much time and I am afraid nobody else is willing to spent that time to create another rule-based AI as before.

Okay. Could it help to change preciousnesses of wares and other AI hints?

Few comments:

AI still does not understand the space. E.g. if it "sees" rocks in vicinity it can not figure out if removal is critical for expansion, or it can ignore them. So by default it tries to remove them aggressively.

Mines producing building material (like crystal ones) are more critical than iron/coal ones, and are barely ever dismantled therefore.

Tools are also something like building materials face-wink.png

AI behaves best in average conditions - enough space, all materials available and some time to build an economy. If you stress it somehow - it will not cope well... Training would help, but except for my home PC I have no capacity for this...

kaputtnik wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

And by the way: The AI makes now some terrible mistakes which it didn't do in build19...

Buil19 has a complete different implementation. As far i understand, the current implementation of the AI is some kind of self learning, observed by a human: Ai training. Comparing this two implementations is not very productive.

Tibor's work on this is great, because every one can train the AI and thus can help to make it better without knowledge of programming. He has to spend some time on training though (a kind of contributing). But if one has an idea to improve the ai, i think no one would complain face-smile.png

Okay....


“It's a threat to our planet to believe that someone else will save it.” - Robert Swan

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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-01-20, 21:29

WorldSavior wrote:

simplypeachy wrote:

I've seen a Frisian AI build three+ reindeer farms in close proximity.

That's too much if the whole economy is still small. For big economies it can make sense...

Agreed. One can't evaluate an AI behaviour without knowing the circumstances.

The AI also seem to prefer building small military buildings near areas of recent military conflict, which weakens their position. I am not sure if either of these behaviours are new.

Yes, that's right. I think it's new. The AI now also dismantles military building close to their frontlines and/or sets soldier capacities very low

That is indeed a behaviour I find annoying and can confirm. On my usual map to watch 4 AI / 4 tribes matches this is the reason for the matches lasting very long. Perhaps we could improve the algorithm on this site. At least it is on my list for after b20. I believe the AI has difficulties considering different military influence on crucial fields but I need to dig through the code and values more thoroughly.

What mistakes?

For example Atlantean AI's often fail at making a tool production running: They build too many quarries so the picks are wasted for stone, and then they build 2 crystal mines very soon, so they cannot occupy their iron- and/or coal-mines without putting the miners from the crystal mines into the other mines (which they are not able to do).

I noticed this as well very often but after a change in the code and additional training it seemed to be better in recent builds. Maybe we could do something about this by the definitions of basic buildings. Do you have a special map where this is especially evident?

Then they will continue dismantling those mines all the time (except for the occupied mines which are mostly crystal), so they waste a lot of resources and lower their chance for the occupation even more.

Agreed but this is a follow on behaviour of the above, and in general the behaviour makes sense without the above issue.

And they often dismantle productionsites, just because productivity is low, which isn't very helpful.

I believe this is a matter of training.

Or the AI doesn't upgrade mines even when it makes sense (for example when they are depleted and deeper mines would find something).

Sometimes the AI does need an additional trigger (e.g. low ressources) to do this. Anyhow it is more than difficult match necessity thoughts of a human by an algorithm,


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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2019-01-21, 04:29

I've never needed more than one crystal mine. Maybe two on very huge maps without other stone sources. The AI should not make two. Maybe put a limitation like "don't make more than 1 for the first three hours of game"?


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