Topic: Tavern -> Inn upgrade

Tinker wrote:

Currently Barbarians and Empire can update theit taverns to Inns, and Barbarians go further to a large Inn but the same worker works at the tavern and Inns.

The is a branch created that has a Taverner working in taverns and he trains to be an Innkeeper which is needed fot the Inn or Large Inn. As it is configured at the moment Barbarians need 30 experience and Empire 35, from testing the upgrade is available at about the time when mines start working, depending on map to some extent. The large inn employs an innkeeper and a taverner instead of two innkeepers as at present.

Any comments are welcome and suggestions of tweaks to the numbers are better considered before adding the branch to trunk.

Why adding this to trunk at all? I'm against it, who else?

Playing barbarians is already exhausting. This change would make them worse in comparison to other tribes, especially atlanteans.

Wanted to save the world, then I got widetracked

Top

Quote

Tinker wrote:

To my mind it is completely logical if there is an upgrade for a building there should be an upgraded worker required,

The inns show that this has not to be necessarily the case

or why bother with the upgrade path for the building.

For example, deep mines cost more, so they are probably just deeper than normal mines. But this doesn't mean that the miner has to be too bad for the deep mine and that you need a level-2-miner in any case.

Look at the atlanteans, there the miners can go to any depth...

But to get alternative views I have asked for comments, thank you for your views,

You're welcome

although I do not see why you find it hard work to check if your worker is trained before upgrading,

Because it requires some attention. And there is a problem which is bigger: What if you have to upgrade a tavern but the worker needs more experience?

you can in any case play many maps without upgrading mines or taverns.

Yes, but on many maps you have to upgrade them, especially if you play barbarians

Wanted to save the world, then I got widetracked

Top

Quote

From my perspective the change would probably fit well into the barbarian tribe's behaviour, as they need to gain experience to "learn" advanced technologies. As cooking better meals is a real art the feature fits well into the storyline. The numbers however might need some tweaking as they should work on at least 95% of all maps. Furthermore the same mechanism as for the brewer should be implemented. As the brewer and the smith were already lowered in their need for experience it might not affect balancing strongly if the correct numbers are set. So for barbarians I would opt for yes while some testing would be necessary to get good numbers.
Totally different story for the empire as they have literally all the normal arts ready at hand and do not widely incorporate the learning curve / experience feature except for the miners. So it does not fit so well into this tribes general appearance. Therefore for empire I would vote no

Top

Quote

teppo wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

or why bother with the upgrade path for the building.

For example, deep mines cost more, so they are probably just deeper than normal mines. But this doesn't mean that the miner has to be too bad for the deep mine and that you need a level-2-miner in any case.

Barbarians probably want to use normal mines as long as possible, since those are super cheap to run. On the other hand, the deep marble mines of empire use the mountain resources more efficiently. If there is a shortage of marble mining sites, Empire players want to upgrade early (note: this is really old info, could have changed). In short, it depends.

Why are you mentioning this?

Look at the atlanteans, there the miners can go to any depth...

Should the atlantean miners need trunk in addition to foodstuff? Continuous expansion of the tunnels..

Definitely not

although I do not see why you find it hard work to check if your worker is trained before upgrading,

Because it requires some attention. And there is a problem which is bigger: What if you have to upgrade a tavern but the worker needs more experience?

The barbarian brewer works even if the economy does not need light beer, as long as the worker needs experience. In other words: we have a way to get around that problem.

This way is another problem in my opinion. And it's not a solution at all for a case where you want to upgrade your first coalmine immediately to a deep coalmine, but you don't have an innkeeper yet to make an inn ready.

hessenfarmer wrote:

From my perspective the change would probably fit well into the barbarian tribe's behaviour, as they need to gain experience to "learn" advanced technologies. As cooking better meals is a real art the feature fits well into the storyline.

Note that the big inn requires one additional worker already.

The numbers however might need some tweaking as they should work on at least 95% of all maps. Furthermore the same mechanism as for the brewer should be implemented. As the brewer and the smith were already lowered in their need for experience it might not affect balancing strongly if the correct numbers are set. So for barbarians I would opt for yes while some testing would be necessary to get good numbers.

But barbarians have already 4 types of workers which require experience (brewer, smith, miner, level-2-miner). To add a number 5 would be unfair because it would increase the difference to the other tribes even more. And I think that it's not bad that at least one building upgrade doesn't require an upgraded worker (tavern -> inn) and it's also interesting that one building upgrade requires not an upgraded worker, but just one additional worker (inn -> big inn).

Totally different story for the empire as they have literally all the normal arts ready at hand and do not widely incorporate the learning curve / experience feature except for the miners. So it does not fit so well into this tribes general appearance. Therefore for empire I would vote no

This is a correct argument, I guess

Tinker wrote:

From my own testing the numbers work on all maps, at least all maps tested so far which is most of them.

But let me guess: Upgrading the first mines immediately will not work anymore for barbarians, because you'll have to wait for the first innkeeper, right?

I did not see the point of lowering experience for other upgrades as it makes things to easy

Why too easy? Atlanteans are very fast in getting their first elite soldier, but the high experience values of barbarians in build 19 make it impossible for them to be not much slower. As discussed in the forum....

but the taverner usually has a stock of at least 30 rations when he upgrades to Innkeeper and mine production is not affected by the upgrade to Inn. As well as testing with 'normal' start conditions I have also tested with hardcore starting conditions and it only takes a few more minutes to get to the point where I can start recruiting and training soldiers.

In my opinion the Empire not having much in the way of learning / experience / upgrading is more of a reason to add it than a reason not to. My view is that eventually more buildings of all tribes should have an upgrade possibility and require a trained worker, the upgrade producing wares faster or more efficient or better quality, but that is years into the future.

Why changing the current tribes that much? Instead, one could make a new tribe with that attribute.

Wanted to save the world, then I got widetracked

Top

Quote

Tinker wrote:

There is, perhaps, a case where you can build a mine within a few minutes of starting a game and begin the upgrade process straight away - if you can create upgraded miners.

Your knowledge of the game is not really perfect: Barbarians don't have to create level-2-miners before they upgrade their first mines. (I'm talking about the HQ start-condition, not about hardcore)

Widelands is supposed to be a slow evolving economy game with complex economics, the fact that a lot of users seem to want develope their economy fast to make it into a combat game is their problem.

No, that is not "our problem". Widelands works well as combat game and almost everyone plays it as a combat game.

I have also some plans in development for upgrades to Atlantians workers and buildings.

Please don't force everyone to replace the official game with your mods. If you don't like it how the tribes are, it's your problem

Wanted to save the world, then I got widetracked

Top

Quote