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Topic: Searching opponent (fjords, tournament-like)

Hasi50
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Joined: 2015-12-28, 16:19
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Version: 1.2 (selfcompiled master etc)
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Widelands-Forum-Junkie
Location: DE - near Frankfurt
Posted at: 2017-01-08, 10:55

You must open / forwar port 7396, see

https://wl.widelands.org/wiki/General%20Port%20Forwarding%20Recipe/

even older computers should do.


Here are the widelands where people may dwell, walking around care that evrythings well.

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No0815
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Posted at: 2017-01-08, 11:35

Thanks again! Port forwarding is now enabled. Indeed didn't think about that one.


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No0815
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Pry about Widelands
Posted at: 2017-01-08, 15:11

The game is ready, now I'm waiting for Janus. I'm more nervous than I should be ...


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No0815
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Posted at: 2017-01-10, 18:26

Well, I've been absent for a while after this game. It sure didn't go as expected, in almost every way. Since Janus didn't show up, WorldSavior, who originally joined as spectator, offered to jump in. After some time I accepted - and two hours later I clearly lost the game, seemingly never standing a real chance. I won't lie, I didn't cope well with it. While I'm usually not a bad loser, the fact that I put so much enthusiasm and two weeks of planing and training into it, combined with my current condition, made it hit me hard. I just don't know what went wrong! Here's the replay: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzJhs3Bo_Sm8dE9zdlFCbUtqeWs

I don't get it. Within 45 minutes I managed to squeeze in 8 farms, 3 (persistent) woodcutters, 5 foresters, 4 pairs of hunters/gamekeepers, 2 fishers, 3 wells, a (already enhanced) brewery, a bakery, a tavern, a smelting works, a coal, an iron and a gold mine, an ax workshop, a wood hardener (temporarily 2), a lime kiln and two quarries. The arena, which I could supply indefinitely, followed shortly after. Afaik I'm the only one who managed to get lvl 10 soldiers (in regards to the tournament) on this map. So how on earth could I lose so clearly?


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WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
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Posted at: 2017-01-10, 19:47

Again, I'm sorry for that... But my victory was not that clear, I guess. I had to work really, really hard to reach it... And you could be very satisfied with the skill-level which you reached already face-smile.png

Your defeat is easy to explain for me: Barbarians are bad at evade, but they have great weapons and helmets. So you should have build the trainingscamp first - not the arena - like I did. And your Arena can be much faster than your trainingscamp, so to speak, so it's good to have the trainingscamp early. And one barbarian smelting works+one tavern+one coalmine+one iron mine is not enough for a trainingscamp by far...

Edited: 2017-01-10, 20:17

Wanted to save the world, then I got widetracked

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kaputtnik
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Posted at: 2017-01-10, 21:41

Just watched the replay face-smile.png

Beside WorldSavior had really strong soldiers he had one additional advantage: Warehouses near the borders with preferring to store soldiers there So soldiers get very quick to new military buildings.


Fight simulator for Widelands:
https://wide-fighter.netlify.app/

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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2017-01-11, 01:18

don't feel bad, worldsavior is a strong player. he played very well, and he had the advantage since the beginning, but you also played well and you offered a good resistance. your only real mistake was to make the training camp too late. aside from that, worldsavior just had the strongest economy. And one big difference of playing with real people, as opposed to against AI, is that against real people you are going to lose statistically half the times. it's good that you have enthusiasm, though. they are much more rewarding opponents, even when they win.

as for having level 10 soldiers, also worldsavior had them; ok, he was missing the third defence promotion, but the difference is small enough that it can be compensated with numbers, which he had. fully promoted soldiers are almost unbeatable by soldiers without attack promotions (unless you send one to attack a fortress, in which case it could get swarmed and killed before it can retreat). soldiers with 5 or 6 promotions are already capable of standing up to them; the reason it is not good to use such soldiers is that if you can make them, then you can also make fully promoted soldiers, which are more cost-effective.

sorry that you have depression, btw. as far as i know, there's really nothing to do but trying to stay strong. If you are into fantasy literature, though, I suggest you try reading "the way of kings", by brandon sanderson. the protagonist also has depression issues, coupled with post-traumatic stress disorder from some bad times as a war veteran. The thing is, the author did a reallly good job researching, and many people with real depression and ptsd issues congratulated him on portraying realistically the conditions, and said that the book made them feel better. If you are not into fantasy, ignore this attempt at shipping my favourite author face-smile.png


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No0815
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Pry about Widelands
Posted at: 2017-01-13, 15:46

Well, I sure overestimated my capabilities to counter experience with planing.

WorldSavior wrote:

Again, I'm sorry for that...

If you mean how I felt afterwards: Thanks. I appreciate the empathy.
If you mean how the game turned out: Don't. You did nothing wrong.

But my victory was not that clear, I guess.

From the very first fight on I could barely defend against your soldiers, let alone attack myself, with exception of that one tower I managed to defeat. That's what I consider as pretty clear. Sure, you couldn't simply walk through, but I have a hard time to regard that as a success, considering my advantage of planing and a strong economy.

And one barbarian smelting works+one tavern+one coalmine+one iron mine is not enough for a trainingscamp by far...

Definitely not. That's why my plan included each two more smelting works, taverns and coal mines, another iron mine and two more hunters/gamekeepers. And I managed to built most of it.

king_of_nowhere wrote:

don't feel bad, worldsavior is a strong player. he played very well, and he had the advantage since the beginning, but you also played well and you offered a good resistance. your only real mistake was to make the training camp too late. aside from that, worldsavior just had the strongest economy.

Now that honestly really surprises me. I mean, you must be kidding. After an hour I had almost three times the wares and while I had some fewer buildings, they were operating at almost 100% opposed to about 60% for WorldSavior. After one and a half hours I still had twice as many wares and still almost 100% productivity where WorldSavior had at least raised to 80%. After 30 min he only had 2 farms and one hunter, adding one fisher and a third farm in the following 15 min. His heavy industry was mostly starving for one and a half hours.

I just watched the replay (I couldn't stand to watch more than one and a half hours) and I can only conclude that teh winning strategy is: "Fuck economy, use the starting resources to get a couple of half trained soldiers and wear off the enemy with them. Win." I lost most of my soldiers in the first one and a half hours, that's what also lost me the game in the end. And all WorldSavior had to use were the starting resources and the bit he could squeeze out of his ailing economy. If that's how to prevail in this game: No thank you, I'm not interested.


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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2017-01-13, 17:55

kaputtnik wrote:

WorldSavior had really strong soldiers

Yes face-smile.png

king_of_nowhere wrote:

don't feel bad, worldsavior is a strong player. he played very well, and he had the advantage since the beginning, but you also played well and you offered a good resistance. your only real mistake was to make the training camp too late. aside from that, worldsavior just had the strongest economy.

Thanks, man! I'd like to say that you are a strong player as well... I've never been so nervous before a match of widelands as before our match at wednesday. And I don't know who else could have made me so nervous.

No0815 wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

Again, I'm sorry for that...

If you mean how I felt afterwards: Thanks. I appreciate the empathy.
If you mean how the game turned out: Don't. You did nothing wrong.

Yes, I'm just sorry for your feelings. You're welcome face-smile.png

And one barbarian smelting works+one tavern+one coalmine+one iron mine is not enough for a trainingscamp by far...

Definitely not. That's why my plan included each two more smelting works, taverns and coal mines, another iron mine and two more hunters/gamekeepers. And I managed to built most of it.

Yes, okay. But I had more than 5 smelting works, 4 taverns, 3 coalmines, 4 ironmines, and at the end approximately 8 hunters (if fishers also count, which are faster). That was already more than enough for running my trainingscamp on 100% for "eternity".

king_of_nowhere wrote:

don't feel bad, worldsavior is a strong player. he played very well, and he had the advantage since the beginning, but you also played well and you offered a good resistance. your only real mistake was to make the training camp too late. aside from that, worldsavior just had the strongest economy.

Now that honestly really surprises me. I mean, you must be kidding. After an hour I had almost three times the wares and while I had some fewer buildings, they were operating at almost 100% opposed to about 60% for WorldSavior. After one and a half hours I still had twice as many wares and still almost 100% productivity where WorldSavior had at least raised to 80%. After 30 min he only had 2 farms and one hunter, adding one fisher and a third farm in the following 15 min. His heavy industry was mostly starving for one and a half hours.

No, he is not kidding at all. My lack of meet/fish was not so hard at all, because I could quickly build more buildings, and I even had bred left which I could waste in my taverns. Okay, that's embarrassing, but I could build enough farms and wells to compensate that.

I made the experience that six farms can be enough for 100% of a trainingscamp and - well fitting to that - an arena which is not running that often.

I just watched the replay (I couldn't stand to watch more than one and a half hours) and I can only conclude that teh winning strategy is: "Fuck economy, use the starting resources to get a couple of half trained soldiers and wear off the enemy with them. Win." I lost most of my soldiers in the first one and a half hours, that's what also lost me the game in the end. And all WorldSavior had to use were the starting resources and the bit he could squeeze out of his ailing economy. If that's how to prevail in this game: No thank you, I'm not interested.

I hope that king_of_nowhere and me could convince you about the fact that my economy was strong indeed. So calling it "ailing" is just a great joke. Insulting me a little bit, but you had just not get it, so I don't care that much. face-wink.png

Edited: 2017-01-13, 18:42

Wanted to save the world, then I got widetracked

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king_of_nowhere
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Joined: 2014-09-15, 18:35
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Posted at: 2017-01-13, 18:34

No0815 wrote:

king_of_nowhere wrote: aside from that, worldsavior just had the strongest economy.

Now that honestly really surprises me. I mean, you must be kidding. After an hour I had almost three times the wares [emphasis mine] and while I had some fewer buildings, they were operating at almost 100% opposed to about 60% for WorldSavior. After one and a half hours I still had twice as many wares and still almost 100% productivity where WorldSavior had at least raised to 80%. After 30 min he only had 2 farms and one hunter, adding one fisher and a third farm in the following 15 min. His heavy industry was mostly starving for one and a half hours.

Ah, that's a mistake most people do; confusing having many wares with having a good economy. So. Very. Wrong.

Having wares is actually the opposite of having a good economy. if your economy is good, then all your wares are turned into soldiers. you should have very little wares. if you have many wares, then you are not using those wares. it means your economy is badly balanced. you are making tons of water, wheat, meat, but you are not using them. so it would be better if instead of making all those wells and farms and stuff you made more smelting works and weapon smiths or whatever it is you're missing. you may notice how the AI also tend to have plenty of wares. if worldsavior had few wares, it meant he was using his. and yes, he had few farms, but barbarians can do with few of those as long as they only use basic mines; rations can be made from meat or fish alone. so he only needed the bread to promote soldiers in the training camp, and he had enough for that. If instead of looking at wares you went to look at power, there you could see the real strenght of an economy: how fast it can make better soldiers (1). and worldsavior had more power than you did from the beginning. he made more soldiers through all the game. that's why I'm saying he had the better economy.

As a side note, productivity graph is also misleading: you could have 20 wells producing at 100% and that would raise your productivity to the sky, but all that water would do nothing but clutter your roads.

I just watched the replay (I couldn't stand to watch more than one and a half hours) and I can only conclude that teh winning strategy is: "Fuck economy, use the starting resources to get a couple of half trained soldiers and wear off the enemy with them. Win."

Again, wrong. you can use that strategy against AI at most. Oh, of course on a small map you should try to get some promoted soldier as soon as possible and wear down the opponent as much as you can if said opponent did not make some promoted soldiers of his own, but you can't hope to take a prepared opponent without a strong economy. Look at power graph, how much that of worldsavior has been climbing: do you think he made that with the starting resources and an ailing economy? if your economy what actually better, how did you fail to make more and stronger soldiers than he did? why, when you made 2 fully promoted soldiers, he could make over half a dozen of them (missing one helmet promotion, ok; but still he used many more resources than you did) if his economy was not working better than yours did?

You could also look at my latest game against him: we both promoted our starting soldiers, and we both used them hard. however, he was faster than me, and when i run out of soldiers, he had replacements. I got myself without wood and took too long to set up mines. To be exact, it took me one and a half hours to get all mines going with a weapon smith and a dungeon, which is still less than it takes to most people, but my opponent was faster. if you look, at the end of the replay I had all the wares needed to make a fully promoted soldier (except shields, which can be skippped in a hurry; evade and attack are the really important ones), I was only waiting only for a couple gold ingots; but worldsavior already made a couple such soldiers. more important, his power was growing faster than mine could, he had more farms, more bakeries, more smokeries, and he could keep producing more. I could have delayed for another half hour or more if I had wanted, but i could never fix the fact that he could produce more soldiers than I could. That's where I surrendered; after we both spent the starting soldiers, because he could consistently make more new ones than I could. that's how economy matters.

I think your idea that he somehow won with a worse economy just by busing the starting resources (after a 5-hours game, no less) is the product of temporary frustration. It doesn't hold to close scrutiny.

(1) technically, it is also possible to cheat power graph by making plenty of soldiers unpromoted, or promoted only with evasion; 3 of those add to the power graph as much as a single fully promoted soldier, but they are much less effective and much less expensive. As far as I know, nobody ever tried bluffing like that among humans, but I doubt it can really be made to work

Edited: 2017-01-13, 18:42

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