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Topic: Shipped maps overhaul

kaputtnik
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Joined: 2013-02-18, 20:48
Posts: 1888
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Location: Germany
Posted at: 2016-01-26, 18:42

There was a discussion of shipped maps starting here. So here we can talk about which maps should be replaced with newer maps and maybe add few new maps.

Here is a (uncomplete) list of maps that maybe should dropped including suggestion for a replace:

Map Players Note Replace with
Twin Lagoons 2 Newer version available Twin Lagoons1.1. (2 P)
Volcanic Winter 2 Imbalanced Missing 2 player map
Last Bastion 2 Unplayable anymore because trees do not grow Last Bastion V2
Glacier Lake 2 Not playable with Atlantean Glacier Lake v2
Comet Island 3 Too dry Comet Island v2
War of the valleys 3 AI has problems because the place is small Wideworld (3 P)
Dry Riverbed 3 Should be dropped Full Moon 1.1 (4 P)
Finnish Lakes 3 Imbalanced Description updated
Wisent Valley 5 Remove 5fth player Discription updated
Kings and Queens 7 Newer Version available Kings and Queens v2
The Nile 8 Newer Version available The nile 2rc1 (8 P)
Long, Long way 8 should be dropped Last Survivers (8 P)

Maps that would be new to shipped maps:

Map Players
Dolomites v2 6
Archipelage Sea 4
Edited: 2016-02-09, 21:48

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king_of_nowhere
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Joined: 2014-09-15, 18:35
Posts: 1645
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Posted at: 2016-01-26, 19:33

most maps i've never played - i like challenges, the ai is too weak, and mmultiplayer lobby is too empty - but i can add some comments

'AI has problems because the place is small' actuallly applies to most small maps. for example in the 'green plateau' map i played it two or three times and i never saw an ai with a fully functioning economy. so, if 'ai is bad at that map' is a good condition to remove a map, we should take out quite a bit of them. on the other hand, adding a message in the map description that ai is bad at that map should be enough. some of the best maps to play among humans are maps that the ai cannot play.

now, suggestion for the maps:

  • the nile 2rc1: definitely. there is already a nile map, so swapping it for the newer, rebalanced one is good.

  • archipelago sea: that's the map of mine I was hoping to see added. Pros: it features a type of terrain that isn't seen anywhere else, so it provides something other maps don't have. My opinion could be biased here, but I thik it would also be a goood map to play a tournament game - it's even balanced so that every player has exactly the same number of building spaces and ores. But there is a big cons: AI cannot play it. Half the times it get stuck and stops expanding, the other half it makes roads over all the large buildable places and ends up with 0 farms anyway. So, if we take AI proficiency as a discriminating factor, this map should not be included. Same goes for dolomites.

  • full moon: never played it, but looks nice.

  • turtle mountain: that's a solo challenge map, and so far all the maps included in the game are balanced (sort of). I don't think it is a bad idea to add some solo challenge map along with the others, for those who like it difficult. In that case, I think 'the great escape' should be added; judging from comments, it was well liked. Possibly 'anchor' too.


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GunChleoc
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Joined: 2013-10-07, 15:56
Posts: 3207
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Posted at: 2016-01-26, 20:09

Maybe we could use the "hints" field in maps to specify whether it is good against the AI or against human players, e.g. "recommended for singleplayer matches" / "Recommended for multiplayer matches" / "Recommended for both single player and multiplayer matches"


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kaputtnik
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Joined: 2013-02-18, 20:48
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Location: Germany
Posted at: 2016-01-26, 21:20

It would be ice if a map with forested mountains would be added face-grin.png


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einstein13
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Joined: 2013-07-29, 00:01
Posts: 1113
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Location: Poland
Posted at: 2016-01-26, 21:28

I've checked most of the maps (except the newest ones) and I have some thoughts:

Added to Widelands as official

map players what to be done why?
Twin Lagoons 2 replace with version 1.1 new version
Dry riverbed 3 drop designed for atlanteans only
Kings and Queens 7 replace with version v2 new version
The Nile 8 replace to The Nile 2 rc1 new version
Long, long way 8 drop map is flat and boring

Other saved on server

map players why? comments
Wideworld 3 One of my best maps need "miliatry expedition" to be playable
Along the river 5 Great scenario! author: fk
Last Survivors 8 I remember epic battles there

I don't want to hurt anyone! This is only my opinion.


einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/

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DragonAtma
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Joined: 2014-09-14, 01:54
Posts: 254
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Posted at: 2016-01-26, 22:07

From my experience, there were three maps I found to be unbalanced.

  • Finnish Lakes [three players] gives Yellow two advantages: (1) Yellow has mountain access right away -- which means that Yellow can start training new and better soldiers right away, whereas Blue and Red have to expand towards the mountain range first (woe to people who use fog of war and don't know the map!). (2) Given the starting position, the first two players to make contact will be Red and Blue (and, quite likely, will be before either reached the mountain range!). Which means the first two to lose troops -- quite possibly with little land change -- will be Red and Blue. Then Yellow can sweep away their weak armies and seize their land.
  • Comet Isle [three players] was designed to balance trees with mountain access; yellow has the most fertile land, but they're the farthest from the mountains, while the reverse is true for red. Unfortunately, this often means that red is crippled by a tree shortage, while AI yellow will run out of soldiers before reaching the center -- meaning that for AIs, this map is often decided before it even starts.
  • Wisent Valley [five players] is fairly even for four of the five players. Black, however, is unplayable. He starts in the center (whereas the other four have access to mountains right away). In addition, since he's surrounded by the other four, he'd have to fight his way through a player just to have a shot at mountains. I doubt anyone on this board is good enough to win as black, even if they're in a free-for-all against four AIs (and if someone here is good enough, I'd have no chance against them!).

So what do I recommend doing with those three maps?

  • Finnish Lakes: Either remove Red or Blue, or add a fourth player on Yellow's side. In addition, starting spots should be adjusted so they're equal distances from the mountain range.
  • Comet Isle: A while back, I actually produced a rebalanced version, but I never released it because it would be rude to do so without Nasenbaer saying it's ok. Unfortunately, even with those changes, this map may not be salvageable (short of adding a lot more fertile land); someone with the newer versions (I don't have anything later than 7529) should take a look to see if a lack of green land cripples red too much. And, of course, input from Nasenbaer would be great; I'd much rather see this map fixed than see it dropped!
  • Wisent Valley: Actually, if you assume Black to be a minor force it's fine. Alternately, you can just remove Black, either leaving the swamp in the center or replacing it with a mountain. Just remember that if you leave it unmodified, it should be treated as a four-player map despite having five forces.

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king_of_nowhere
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Joined: 2014-09-15, 18:35
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Posted at: 2016-01-26, 22:31

I have checked all of the 1v1 default maps:

  • glacier lake has big fish shortage. It is almost unplayable with atlanteans. It would, however, become ok if more ice floes on the coast were swapped for regular water, and more than one fish was available in them. On the other hand, it's not really much different from crater, but still seems a nice map, so i'd not drop it.

  • volcanic winter is imbalanced (blue player has more land) and it doesn't really have anything that other maps don't. I'd drop it.

It would be ice if a map with forested mountains would be added face-grin.png

So far, the only map that I know to use forested mountains is my dolomites (the more recent version). Although, while I like that map a lot, and it is also fairly well balanced, I'm not sure how appropriate it is to put among the "default" maps the representation of a real place.

Also, I think kaputtnik should edit the first post to keep track of all the suggestions to drop and insert maps.


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kaputtnik
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Joined: 2013-02-18, 20:48
Posts: 1888
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Location: Germany
Posted at: 2016-01-27, 08:47

First post edited. Something overlooked?

Currently i have replaced maps which become dropped with new maps regarding your suggestions and amount of players. Fe. dropping "War of Vallys" and replace it with "Wideworld".


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einstein13
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Joined: 2013-07-29, 00:01
Posts: 1113
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Location: Poland
Posted at: 2016-01-27, 16:42

Finish lakes

I understand that it is imbalanced, but if we think of a game where 2 players are relatively strong and one is weak- it is one of the best map I know. The weak person has plenty of time to build the economy, while other players are fighting all the time.

In the other hand if one is very strong, and the rest is weak- the weak players can fight together on one front.

Conclusion: if there is other imbalanced map, go for it and edit/drop finish lakes. If not- I would save that situation.

Wisent valley

I agree that 5th player should be removed- it is very imbalanced.

Nasenbaer isn't here any more. He can't say why there is 5th player face-confused.png

And since AI is a bit stronger now, it can be hard to win with this configuration. (Challenge for king_of_nowhere)

Dolomites

I like the map because it is using "last technologies", plus it is connected to real world (lots of work to do so). I will go for adding this map to official build.

Others

Should we stick to current number of maps? It is hard to say what should be done face-confused.png

I would like to hear other players voices.


einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/

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GunChleoc
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Joined: 2013-10-07, 15:56
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Posted at: 2016-01-27, 19:02

I think it would be OK to have a few more, as long as we don't go overboard.


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