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Topic: wouldn't it be nice to have a minable tree-friendly terrain?

kaputtnik
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Posted at: 2015-11-27, 18:56

Changing the toolltip to display treefriendlyness vis just a (bad) workaround.... and as i understand king_of_nowhere it would not be possible to have an exact definition, because some trees do grow in different biomes (grow on some terrains of different biomes). But this is better as having no description at all.


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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2015-11-27, 19:06

Yes, it's only a workaround, because the actual situation is too complex. This will also break translation, so we should look into whether we can translate the terrain names and their tree friendliness separately - this will need C++ changes.


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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2015-11-27, 20:14

likes trees is certainly possible. likes summer trees is already a bit trickier, because different trees from the same biome will grow differently. although it is possible for some terrains and biomes.

For example, summer meadows (all 4 of them) like all summer trees to a passable extent. mountain meadow likes more oak and birch, with some spruce in it, while the more specialized summer trees don't like it.

desert meadow will grow all desert terrains to some extent, but palm roystonea will grow virtually only there (pickyness 0.9), so for all other desert terrains, "likes desert trees" will not be accurate.

both winter trees grow similarly well on winter terrains, so no real deal here; maybe on some of the most extreme terrains spruce grows better, because it is more adaptable, but larch likes it colder and less fertile, and those two differences mostly cancels each other out.

the largest problem with the "likes [biome] trees" is wasteland, because the twine is radically different from the others. other wasteland trees have preferred fertilities of 0.7 or greater, while cirrus like 0.4 EDIT: it's twine. That stems from compatibility with older versions; it was the plant better suited to grow on igneous rock, and so I had to give it values that reflected that, while still keeping igneous rock mostly barren.as a result, cirrus doesn't grow well anywhere, although it can adapt somewhat to summer steppe. so "likes wasteland trees" would always be wrong, because there's at least one wasteland tree that doesn't agree with the others.

which, by the way, is one reason i support making the wasteland forested mountain cirrus-friendly: let's give the poor cirrus a home. EDIT: I confused cirrus with twine. it's twine who doesn't have a home

Personally, I think the right way to go would be to add simply "tree friendly" to a terrain's description, and have on the site somewhere a guide of how well the trees grow on each terrain. only roughly, unless einstein wants to replicate his impressive work with the percentages he did for the previous version.

as for the idea of using two different values for the two forested mountain terrains, one cirrus-friendly, one spruce-friendly, i don't think it would work. The problem is that those two trees have wildly different requirements of humidity: 0.7 the spruce, 0.2 the cirrus, which is also picky (had to be picky or it would grow too well on summer steppe and even barren steppe; cirrus was the most difficult tree to balance right in the new model EDIT: i again confused irrus with twine). so using a mixture of terrains with those two values would give a terrain with a humidity of 0.4 to 0.5, on which neither of the two trees would grow. beech and maybe birch would settle it, with maybe some palm borassus. you can experiment, as it is already proven that my ability to predict which tree is going to grow on which terrain based on its values is not 100% reliable, but i am afraid that if you mix the two terrains randomly (as in, select both of them with ctrl from the editor) the result will be poor.

Edited: 2015-11-27, 22:20

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kaputtnik
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Posted at: 2015-11-27, 20:52

Here is my test. In first screenshot the values for both wasteland forested mountain terrains are:

   temperature = 110,
   humidity = 0.15,
   fertility = 0.95,

wasteland_even_is.png

If i give one of the terrain values of:

   temperature = 95,
   humidity = 0.2,
   fertility = 0.4,

It looks this way:

wasteland_even_is.png

A bit more liana tree and beech will arise.

king_of_nowhere wrote:

Personally, I think the right way to go would be to add simply "tree friendly" to a terrain's description,

Then we should go for that i think. Better then nothing. It would be great if you could add this information to each terrain in world/terrains/init.lua for the descname =. You could also make a list containing all terrains which are tree friendly in the wiki. Then i will change the descname in the corresponding branch.

and have on the site somewhere a guide of how well the trees grow on each terrain. only roughly,

Feel free to add a wikipage containing this guide. I would love to see it face-smile.png


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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2015-11-27, 21:49

adding information to a lua file? creating a wikipage? you are mistaking me for someone who knows how to use a pc face-smile.png

I would post the excel files containing the values for trees and terrains, but i don't know how to do even that.

I can, however, make a list of terrains and relative tree friendlyness. I will divide them in 4 categories: A (tree yield > 80%), B (40 to 80%), C (10 to 40%) and D (less than 10%). Keep in mind that

DISCLAIMER - DISCLAIMER - DISCLAIMER

THE PERCENTAGES ARE ONLY GUESSED BASED ON VALUES. THERE MAY BE SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCES BETWEEN SOME MY ESTIMATES AND THE REAL VALUES. THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE SURE WOULD BE TO EXPERIMENTALLY MEASURE THE AMOUNT OF TREE GROWTH.

DISCLAIMER - DISCLAIMER - DISCLAIMER

I will also prepare and excel file with a table of how much each tree will grow on each terrain (again, values are guessed) and post it once someone explain me how to do it.

For now, here is a list. all terrains not included in this list are D. If I use two letters, it's because I'm not sure. also, here (https://wl.widelands.org/forum/topic/1760/?page=11#post-15364) is a rule of thumb.

By the way, the values I picked are not set in stone. feel free to use the following information to suggest improvements. For example, I see wasteland lacks clear B and C terrains, maybe that could be tweaked. summer mountain meadow, desert high mountain meadow and wasteland ashes were all intended as B, but i'm not sure the values i picked reach the objective.

DESERT

  • dry soil C
  • high mountain meadow A/B
  • meadow A
  • mountain meadow A
  • steppe A

SUMMER

  • barren steppe C/D
  • beach C/D
  • meadow 1 to 4 A
  • mountain meadow A/B
  • steppe B/C

WASTELAND

  • ashes A/B
  • ashes A
  • beach C/D
  • hard ground 1 to 4 A
  • igneous rocks C/D

WINTER

  • beach C/D
  • snow C/D
  • taiga C
  • tundra taiga B
  • tundra 1 to 3 A

P.S. I finished playtesting my mountain map half an hour ago, but since you seem to be doing fast, I will wait until forested mountain is included in the editor, and then use it.

Edited: 2015-11-27, 21:55

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kaputtnik
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Posted at: 2015-11-28, 11:16

I've created a wikiarticle TreesAndTerrains. Please verify the content and may add more info. Just click on "Edit this article" on the right above the article.

It shoulkd be ok if i change the descname to "... like trees" for terrains which have tree yield > 80%.

For the wastelabd forested mountain we should only use the values which result is shown in the first screenshot from here i think.

P.S. I finished playtesting my mountain map half an hour ago, but since you seem to be doing fast, I will wait until forested mountain is included in the editor, and then use it.

We have still the problem with "treeless" in the tooltip. This is a bit complicated ... it's no problem to remove this term in the editor, but we shouldn't have another workaround just to have this new type of terrain imho. The discussion is going on for this, but because its complicated stuff, it may become longer time to solve it. I couldn't give you a real timestamp when this get solved, sorry.


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GunChleoc
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Posted at: 2015-11-28, 11:22

+1 for the last version - we have a few non-wasteland trees on the other terrains as well, so it fits better.

I will program a new property into the terrains for the tooltips - I don't want to break translations for the descnames.

Regarding the probability to grow etc - maybe we should calculate this automatically within Widelands and create an in-game help? This way, it would always be up-to-date.


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kaputtnik
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Posted at: 2015-11-28, 11:39

GunChleoc wrote:

+1 for the last version - we have a few non-wasteland trees on the other terrains as well, so it fits better.

Are you sure you want to have a mountainous terrain which trees will look like on non mountainous terrains?

Regarding the probability to grow etc - maybe we should calculate this automatically within Widelands and create an in-game help? This way, it would always be up-to-date.

This would be the best, but i think it's a long time run and you should not spend much time to code something which depends on an unsatisfying implementation of trees. Of course this is only my personal view face-smile.png


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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2015-11-28, 14:11

i made ssome small addition to the wikipage. And i have a dataheet for individual trees ready to be uploaded when someone tell me how.

As for the map, let's say that if this hasn't been implemented in three weeks, I'm going to post it in its current form. for now, i wait.


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kaputtnik
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Posted at: 2015-11-28, 15:02

Thanks for editing the wikipage. AFAIK it is not possible to add a datasheet (xls) to a wikiarticle, unless its an image ... you could try to add it if you edit the article. On the bottom of the page is a formular to upload an image.

What is your opinion about the trees? Same values for both terrains or different values (more variety of trees)?


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