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Topic: Do trees grow on mountains?

kaputtnik
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Posted at: 2015-03-10, 08:37

I have to concrete my sentence from yesterday:

Maybe i am the only one who wants other benefits from the one world merge as "only" have the abililty to make maps with different vegetation zones.

This could be read as i don't want vegetation zones. Thats untrue. I don't want vegetation zones wich depends on the terrain types.


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einstein13
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Posted at: 2015-03-10, 15:31

kaputtnik wrote:

einstein13, please do not anger. I understand your point and the reason for the one world merge. But i feel misunderstoud. Maybe i am the only one who wants other benefits from the one world merge as "only" have the abililty to make maps with different vegetation zones.

Sorry for my anger yesterday- I was a bit tired. Sorry for that, also sorry for king_of_nowhere.

There is only one solution: write your own bugreport on launchpad and fill it with another values for terrains and/or trees. Also you can change the code (there are some parameters too). If you do that probably there will be someone who will try your values face-smile.png Now the behaviour is different than you expect, but for some people it works just fine. face-wink.png

king_of_nowhere wrote:

einstein13 wrote:

http://student.agh.edu.pl/~rak/widelands/files/TreesModel-explanation/Data01.pdf

(...) Is it user-friendly? One page?

1) that page is not easy to find.

I know that it is on my own webpage. Probably in the future I will ask SirVer for help, how to put the information on the webpage here. But now I don't know... Still it is not finished, so there is no reason for merging that to the Widelands' page (wiki? other place?).

2) very few people know the names of plants and terrains. Larch, spruce, alder, aspen? (...) I am not able to tell the different kinds of meadows.

There is a simple solution: giving the correct images for every tree/ terrain type. Will it be ok for you?

3) that page contains the wrong information. (...) the sheet may not be up to date or it may be giving the wrong informations

I know that. This is definately not up-to-date, especially after tweaking the values in last month. Also it is incomplete. That is why I asked you to help me with finishing the work. It takes lots of time and I don't have it right now.

I was asking if the table-style will be user- friendly, beacuse I can read that and I don't know if anybody else can read that too.

I only need to know if there is at least one tree that can grow there.

Ok, there can be even simplier table: for foresters. I imagine that there will be a list of terrain types and short explanation how that works for foresters (good/ bad).

Of course the testing will be sligtly different, but still easy one (even less math there).

I'm really sorry about that. I hate to complain about work that people has done for free, and I hate to ask people to do more work.

I was asking you to do that- thank you face-smile.png


einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/

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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2015-03-10, 19:39

ok, so let's see 1) that page is not easy to find.

I know that it is on my own webpage. Probably in the future I will ask SirVer for help, how to put the information on the webpage here

Well, I suppose future development will include a more detailed game manual on this site, and yeah, that page would definitely fit, as well as the rest of your site.

2) There is a simple solution: giving the correct images for every tree/ terrain type.

Yes, that would definitely help.

3)Ok, there can be even simplier table: for foresters. I imagine that there will be a list of terrain types and short explanation how that works for foresters (good/ bad). Of course the testing will be sligtly different, but still easy one (even less math there).

I can help with that, although I am unsure how. maybe I could let start a game, build a forester, let it plant some number of trees in a determinate area, and then count how many were planted and how many actually grew. or maybe, less labor-intensive, I could just set the forester to work and see if the surface will eventually be covered with trees or will remain bare. Or even yet, I could make one forester and one woodcutter, let them work freely for one hour, and then see how many trunks are in storage. Probably that's the better way, that's the kind of information a player needs most. So I'll work on it.


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einstein13
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Posted at: 2015-03-10, 20:12

king_of_nowhere wrote:

I can help with that, although I am unsure how. maybe I could let start a game, build a forester, let it plant some number of trees in a determinate area, and then count how many were planted and how many actually grew. or maybe, less labor-intensive, I could just set the forester to work and see if the surface will eventually be covered with trees or will remain bare. Or even yet, I could make one forester and one woodcutter, let them work freely for one hour, and then see how many trunks are in storage. Probably that's the better way, that's the kind of information a player needs most. So I'll work on it.

If you want to help, just see the result of my work with build-17 greenland model (build-18 is the same). Pages 4-9:

http://student.agh.edu.pl/~rak/widelands/files/ForestersWoodcutters/ForestersAndWoodcutters1.3.pdf

The tests were quite simple but very long. I just conquered all the terrain around the plain world. The world was full of different types of soil. Then I've built 6 foresters in the same distances and full of woodcutters around them. To chop all the trees. From one trees production it was sent to one warehouse. All foresters started to plant trees. After exactly 2 hours they stopped. Then woodcutters chopped the trees down and then I rewritted all the values to the excel file.

This procedure was quite simple, but still - long time to make all the tests.

I will do all the calculations, that is not a problem. face-smile.png

To the first file (types of trees and so on) it is a bit longer work: editor stuff: First I make whole the world with water. Then make all the islands of different types of terrain. Then plant the trees (the smallest ones!) on each island. Wait 2 hours. Count the number of trees on each island. The number can be estimated. We are interested on % of each specie on each land.


einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/

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kaputtnik
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Posted at: 2015-03-10, 20:22

If the tests are completed: Could the 4 values to each terrain be joined into one describing string? f.e. "Taiga" or something like "good_for_coniferes"


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einstein13
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Posted at: 2015-03-10, 20:36

kaputtnik wrote:

If the tests are completed: Could the 4 values to each terrain be joined into one describing string? f.e. "Taiga" or something like "good_for_coniferes"

You can think about that face-smile.png I can add the string to the table, as you suggest face-smile.png If we all make some tests, we will have lots of fun and do good work then face-smile.png


einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/

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kaputtnik
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Posted at: 2015-03-10, 21:05

einstein13 wrote:

kaputtnik wrote:

If the tests are completed: Could the 4 values to each terrain be joined into one describing string? f.e. "Taiga" or something like "good_for_coniferes"

You can think about that face-smile.png I can add the string to the table, as you suggest face-smile.png If we all make some tests, we will have lots of fun and do good work then face-smile.png

Ok, than it makes some things easier. f.e. mark such terrains in the editor terrain menu like the old behavior face-smile.png (and my work on this get forwarded). It also makes implementing new terrains easier if there is only one value to change than 4 values with dozen of digits face-wink.png

I am sorry that i couldn't help with figuring out the correct values....

Because there are some circumstances wich are not completely solved i created a bugreport as you suggest.

Thanks for your work *thumbsup*


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einstein13
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Posted at: 2015-03-11, 00:03

kaputtnik wrote:

f.e. mark such terrains in the editor terrain menu like the old behavior face-smile.png

To be specific: I don't know how to implement terrain menu patch/ fix, but I can create a simple table which will contain all you want.

It also makes implementing new terrains easier if there is only one value to change than 4 values with dozen of digits face-wink.png

"dozen of digits" is because there were some fitting through computer model, not human one. And I don't think that it will change. For sure you can think about a tree which will grow everywhere.

I am sorry that i couldn't help with figuring out the correct values....

Because there are some circumstances wich are not completely solved i created a bugreport as you suggest.

Thanks for your work *thumbsup*


einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/

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einstein13
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Posted at: 2015-03-11, 00:52

Ok, I've prepared "simple" map with all terrain types. Just to test. Also I've prepared two maps only for testing spruce and larch.

Link: http://student.agh.edu.pl/~rak/widelands/files/TreesModel-explanation/TreesTerrain.zip

If you want to prepare any map and test:

PREPARATION

  • edit "All terrains. wmf" file
  • add one type of tree to each spot:
    • center of spot
    • radius = 7
    • type of tree: the smallest one, sampling
  • save the map as new name

TEST

  • open the map as a new game:
    • freeplay with no fog
  • wait 2 hours of gameplay (you can use speeding up)
  • pause the game
  • count the trees (grown) for each of the terrain type
  • write the numbers to the table

I will calculate the percentages if you don't do that for me face-smile.png Radius = 7 for trees means 127 trees planted.

I also cleared the tables of excel there (new versions of files). Go for it- download and fill in :).

Edited: 2015-03-11, 01:00

einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/

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king_of_nowhere
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Posted at: 2015-03-11, 01:55

einstein13 wrote:

The tests were quite simple but very long. I just conquered all the terrain around the plain world. The world was full of different types of soil. Then I've built 6 foresters in the same distances and full of woodcutters around them. To chop all the trees. From one trees production it was sent to one warehouse. All foresters started to plant trees. After exactly 2 hours they stopped. Then woodcutters chopped the trees down and then I rewritted all the values to the excel file.

My tests are much simpler. I made a small map with one single type of terrain. I don't expand. I simply build one forester and one woodcutter, and I see how much wood is produced in two hours. Then I change the terrain and do it again.

If I want to test unbuildable terrain (the mountains, and water edges) then I will only leave meadow enough to make the headquarter, the forester and the woodcutter, and I will make roads on the edges to prevent trees from being planted there.

For now I made what I called the baseline: meadow already full of trees, three foresters and one woodcutter, to see how much the woodcutter can produce in the most optimal conditions. Surprisingly, it seems barbarians woodcutters are better: in two hours, one woodcutter made 144 +- 1 trunks, against 130 for both atlanteans and empire. I don't know it that's because it has a faster script, or because it has a different algoritm to pick a tree that makes it stick to closer trees. anyway, the results are very reproducible, so it is a rreal difference. quite peculiar, since barbarians don't need as much wood as the other civs - they are the only ones not relying on wood to make weapons.

Anyway, that means I will have to make separate tests for each civ. there is no guarantee that imperial and atlantean foresters behave the same just because their woodcutters do. The test is quite fast to make: a few minutes to set the map, less than a minute to build the woodcutter and forester, then speed up and start the chronometer. I will make more in the next days. I'm using buiild 7425 for windows.


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