Topic: Pioneers

Warnuf Topic Opener Joined: 2011-02-26, 17:57 Posts: 16 Pry about Widelands	Posted at: 2011-02-28, 14:25 I have an idea for a new building&unit: pioneer school&pioneer. Pioneers need some resources per action (perhaps some food) can perform it within a certain range around the pioneer school (it can cross most terrains but lava) and returns afterwards to the pioneer school. An action can be (should be selective stopable): * Transport 1 unit of any resource to a distant building/construction site not connected to the same network as the pioneer school. * Work 1 step as any kind of other worker but soldiers and with reduced speed. * Search for a small stonebob for the quarry (only with a small chance successfull, less resource efficient than mining in an empty granit mine) * perhaps also searching for a diamond for the atlanteans (unless it is intended that diamonds are the only resource not endless producable. At least I never got any from a depleted mine) This serves two purposes: * You can expand to otherwise unreachable territorrys, expensive and slow, but you can. * You can overcome a lot of resource shortages with this building. Particulary missing of the right tool for a worker or not having trained the right worker. Top Quote

Astuur Joined: 2009-02-28, 09:08 Posts: 733 One Elder of Players Location: Frankfurt / Germany	Posted at: 2011-03-01, 18:57 Hmm ... interesting concept... If I got that right, it's a kind of scoutish craftsman, that you're proposing.. Can they make a road connection to the existing realm through unclaimed territory? I think they would need to; otherwise they're not much use. Should they be able to cross borders? I could imagine that the safety net function of this may be welcomed by many players -- predominantly unexperienced ones. You'd probably lose the game (even against the AI) if you must rely on this feature, but at least you needn't look at the screen helplessly On the other hand it's a drastic change of the ruleset to have such a "joker" function at hand. It might change the game too much. Especially the mapmakers that have carefully planned the available options for each party may see their plans destroyed. Depending on how the seafaring will finally be implemented, we might see an unintended (by the mapmakers) access to some terrain anyhow. So ... all in all - why not put some more thought into that concept? It raises a lot more questions than you have answered so far. To limit a pioneers usefulness for invasive or agressive actions, they should probably be recognized as a type of soldier and attacked by other parties if spotted. I am no programmer, but that sounds like a lot of work to me. Being no programmer, I apologize for all my suggestions that imply undue workload and for other misjudgements due to lack of expertise or relevant skills. I am on Win32, have no means to compile, and rely on prefabricated distributions (Thanks to Tino). Top Quote

ixprefect Joined: 2009-02-27, 13:28 Posts: 367 Tribe Member	Posted at: 2011-03-01, 19:30 The concept is definitely an interesting one, and I have to think more about it to form a full opinion. Though initially, I would say that the full proposal gives far too many purposes to one single thing in the game. Especially, using pioneers as wildcard replacements for any type of worker goes too far. Also, the resource related functionalities would be too much. In fact, I would say the following: Yes, these features would enable to route around certain types of resource shortages, and this is precisely why I would rather not have them. The idea of allowing out-of-territory transportation across land is an interesting one, however, and it needs some reflection. Certainly one could imagine the possibility of establishing a new warehouse in a remote region of the map by sending some pioneers and a builder together with the required wares. Transportation of wares between such disjoint regions would be painfully slow, of course, but the prospect of establishing outposts in this way could potentially introduce a new interesting game mechanic on very large maps. How interesting it truly ends up being I don't know, but I wouldn't totally dismiss it outright for now. When considering such a proposal, we should also think about trade between players, and how that could be work as a game mechanic. Of course we'll rather focus on seafaring first. Edited: 2011-03-01, 19:31 Top Quote

Warnuf Topic Opener Joined: 2011-02-26, 17:57 Posts: 16 Pry about Widelands	Posted at: 2011-03-01, 22:22 Astuur wrote: If I got that right, it's a kind of scoutish craftsman, that you're proposing.. Can they make a road connection to the existing realm through unclaimed territory? I think they would need to; otherwise they're not much use. Should they be able to cross borders? I didn't had bordercrossing in mind. If they can they should indeed be able to build roads outside. Astuur wrote: I could imagine that the safety net function of this may be welcomed by many players -- predominantly unexperienced ones. ixprefect wrote: [...] Especially, using pioneers as wildcard replacements for any type of worker goes too far. Also, the resource related functionalities would be too much. In fact, I would say the following: Yes, these features would enable to route around certain types of resource shortages, and this is precisely why I would rather not have them. I first thought only about builder and transporter. The proposal for general worker was added for unexperienced players. I thought as every workstep costs other resources and needs the time for one traveling of the pioneer to the building and back it's not overpowered, instead useless for experienced players but helpfull for beginners. But as you could save some metal in the early game I am unsure about that now. But I stil think it is not overpowered. For land out-of-territory transportation one could perhaps build a traiding trek, working like ships, just on land. Focus on seafaring first ist a good idea, I'm looking forward to it Top Quote

Nasenbaer Joined: 2009-02-21, 17:17 Posts: 828 One Elder of Players Location: Germany	Posted at: 2011-03-02, 07:54 Warnuf wrote: ixprefect wrote: [...] Especially, using pioneers as wildcard replacements for any type of worker goes too far. Also, the resource related functionalities would be too much. In fact, I would say the following: Yes, these features would enable to route around certain types of resource shortages, and this is precisely why I would rather not have them. I first thought only about builder and transporter. The proposal for general worker was added for unexperienced players. I thought as every workstep costs other resources and needs the time for one traveling of the pioneer to the building and back it's not overpowered, instead useless for experienced players but helpfull for beginners. But as you could save some metal in the early game I am unsure about that now. But I stil think it is not overpowered. For land out-of-territory transportation one could perhaps build a traiding trek, working like ships, just on land. Focus on seafaring first ist a good idea, I'm looking forward to it I fully agree. On the one hand, the resource features would be much too powerful and on the other hand I agree that we should first implement seafaring, as some parts of the transportation problem might get solved than. :) I am strongly against driving/walking though areas of the enemy and transporting wares that way. Of course Widelands is not even close to reality ;), but I am quite sure, that pretty much everybody would agree with me, that any enemy would try to directly stop such ware transportations through their territory... However the general idea sounds nice, so we should not forget it. Cheers Nasenbaer Top Quote